[Mateo]

Yesterday a Virginia appellate court upheld a conviction for unlawful possession of ammunition based on the accused's possession of empty shell casings. The statute reads that ammunition comprises a "combination" of primer, bullet, "or" propellant, etc..., but it was read to mean any one of those because of the Legislature's use of the word "or" instead of "and." The appellate court went on to clarify that, based on the Legislature's plain wording in the statute, that it would permit unlawful possession convictions for inoperable firearms or inoperable "ammunition."

It'll be interesting to see how the NRA responds to this....

 

[BLCKWLF]

got a link to it?

 

[BLCKWLF]

Nevermind, found it…



http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/1031112.pdf

 

[TNFrank]

It'll be interesting to see how the NRA responds to this....

Yep, my bet is they'll do nothing at all about it. It would be nice if they did do something though, it's kind of the "Job" that some of ya'll pay em' to do.
Also, this needs to be appealed to a higher Court. The strict definition of "ammunition" would be logically be "a combination of powder, primer, case and bullet as to comprise a "Live Round" of ammunition capable of being discharged in a firearm." At least that'd be my take on it.
By their definition Percussion Caps or lose Black Powder for your muzzle loader could be classified as "ammunition" and we all know that they're not.

 

[BLCKWLF]

This is ridiculous, but that is the way law works… unfortunately…

 

[capitalcityglock]

Hold the phone...

I am really confused and concerned that something of this magnitude made its way to the higher courts.

The guy evidently is a convicted felon, and by law, is banned from having possession of a firearm or ammunition. He was caught with what appears to be intact ammunition, ie a casing, primer, and bullet. Who cares if it has propellant? Are we splitting hairs here? if hs is banned by law to have access, he shouldnt even have just a piece of brass in his pocket. It seems to me a bit odd that someone carries a bullet in his pocket who is banned from access to a firearm..

Just my $.02..Hopefully, I am missing a point here...

 

[TNFrank]

This is ridiculous, but that is the way law works… unfortunately…

You really need to ask yourself though, if a Law is Unconstitutional is it really still a Law? Jim Crow Laws of the '40's and '50's were "law" but they were Unconstitutional and were finally struck down. I think laws like this one should also be struck down on the basis of being Unconstitutional as well and because their wording is in error with regard to what IS and IS NOT "Ammunition".
It's like that crazy Ohio law that "magically" turns a semi-auto into a full auto simply by inserting a magazine with more then 30 rounds into the firearm. Just not solid "Law" IMHO and should be struck down on that basis.

 

[capitalcityglock]

You really need to ask yourself though, if a Law is Unconstitutional is it really still a Law? Jim Crow Laws of the '40's and '50's were "law" but they were Unconstitutional and were finally struck down. I think laws like this one should also be struck down on the basis of being Unconstitutional as well and because their wording is in error with regard to what IS and IS NOT "Ammunition".
It's like that crazy Ohio law that "magically" turns a semi-auto into a full auto simply by inserting a magazine with more then 30 rounds into the firearm. Just not solid "Law" IMHO and should be struck down on that basis.

Help me to understand how banning a convicted felon the right to possess a firearm or ammunition is unconstitutional? He threw away his right to firearms when he chose to break the law. Thanks!

 

[BLCKWLF]

It comes down to how the law is phrased, not the intent or motives behind the law... It's unfortunate but that's how it works...

 

[BLCKWLF]

I am really confused and concerned that something of this magnitude made its way to the higher courts.

The guy evidently is a convicted felon, and by law, is banned from having possession of a firearm or ammunition. He was caught with what appears to be intact ammunition, ie a casing, primer, and bullet. Who cares if it has propellant? Are we splitting hairs here? if hs is banned by law to have access, he shouldnt even have just a piece of brass in his pocket. It seems to me a bit odd that someone carries a bullet in his pocket who is banned from access to a firearm..

Just my $.02..Hopefully, I am missing a point here...

I carry this every day...




It doubles as a kubaton, a self defense tool.

However, others, including myself, consider bullets rather artistic. Some even make jewelry with them.

Regardless though, if they can't have a gun then who cares if they have ammo!!! They can't use it, right? <-- sarcasm...

 

[TNFrank]

The guy evidently is a convicted felon, and by law, is banned from having possession of a firearm or ammunition

This is the first "Problem" with such a law. Our Founding Fathers NEVER intended for ANYONE, Felon or otherwise to ever be disbarred from the ownership or use of Firearms. Even dangerous criminals were Banished to the Frontier WITH their firearms.
By creating laws that bar someone, anyone from owning firearms or ammunition you start to go down a slippery slope where you can keep adding to the law until you end up being able to stop folks with a few parking tickets from owning Firearms. Basically, it's just a rouse to Backdoor Gun Control, nothing more, nothing less.

He was caught with what appears to be intact ammunition, ie a casing, primer, and bullet. Who cares if it has propellant? Are we splitting hairs here? if he is banned by law to have access, he shouldnt even have just a piece of brass in his pocket. It seems to me a bit odd that someone carries a bullet in his pocket who is banned from access to a firearm..

So if he had a Keychain, like the 45acp Keychain that I have with a case that's been drilled for a chain and has a bullet seated into it then he should serve jail time because of it? That's totally ridiculous. Unless the ammunition is able to be fired in a firearm it's NOT ammunition.
We've totally let this "Gun Control" crap get out of hand starting after the Civil War with the North's anti-gun laws imposed on the South and with the '34 NFA, '68GCA and every other law that's been passed and is on the books.
I think we need to get rid of all the firearms laws on the books and go back to the 2nd Amend, Period.

 

[TNFrank]

Help me to understand how banning a convicted felon the right to possess a firearm or ammunition is unconstitutional? He threw away his right to firearms when he chose to break the law. Thanks!

Really, take a good look at what you just said. You want a LAW that will STOP a Convicted Felon from owning firearms then you said that "He threw away his right to firearms when he chose to break the law" so by your very words passing a law to stop him from having a firearm won't work because he's a "criminal" and doesn't follow laws in the first place.
All this so called "law" does is stop folks that may have messed up once in their life and who now have a felony conviction on their record from ever being able to protect themselves or their families in the future after they've rehabilitated themselves by serving their time in Prison.
Once you've paid for your crime you shouldn't continue to have to pay, it's just not Fair or Just on any level. If they're no longer a threat to society and can be released from Prison then they should get ALL of their Rights back, if they're still a threat then they should still be in jail. It's just that plain and simple.

 

[BLCKWLF]

I carry this every day...

It doubles as a kubaton, a self defense tool.

However, others, including myself, consider bullets rather artistic. Some even make jewelry with them.

Regardless though, if they can't have a gun then who cares if they have ammo!!! They can't use it, right? <-- sarcasm...

Or even this necklace autographed by the bagpipe player from FlatFoot56...




Still don't know what round it is...

 

[capitalcityglock]

If a law doesnt serve its purpose, repeal it...but,

This is the first "Problem" with such a law. Our Founding Fathers NEVER intended for ANYONE, Felon or otherwise to ever be disbarred from the ownership or use of Firearms. Even dangerous criminals were Banished to the Frontier WITH their firearms.
By creating laws that bar someone, anyone from owning firearms or ammunition you start to go down a slippery slope where you can keep adding to the law until you end up being able to stop folks with a few parking tickets from owning Firearms. Basically, it's just a rouse to Backdoor Gun Control, nothing more, nothing less.


So if he had a Keychain, like the 45acp Keychain that I have with a case that's been drilled for a chain and has a bullet seated into it then he should serve jail time because of it? That's totally ridiculous. Unless the ammunition is able to be fired in a firearm it's NOT ammunition.
We've totally let this "Gun Control" crap get out of hand starting after the Civil War with the North's anti-gun laws imposed on the South and with the '34 NFA, '68GCA and every other law that's been passed and is on the books.
I think we need to get rid of all the firearms laws on the books and go back to the 2nd Amend, Period.

If a law doesnt serve its purpose, repeal it...but, if it is on the books, enforce it...That's all I am saying...

 

[TNFrank]

Or even this necklace autographed by the bagpipe player from FlatFoot56...


View attachment 26538

Still don't know what round it is...


View attachment 26539

Looks like 7.62x51mm Nato from what this says.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?285933-WTT-200-rounds-7-62-L21A1-Port-NATO

 

[series11]

I'm surprised this didn't happen in Commifornia but now that it is out I'm sure they will try to make a law...

 

[TNFrank]

If a law doesn't serve its purpose, repeal it...but, if it is on the books, enforce it...That's all I am saying...

If it's unenforceable then what do you do? There are laws on the books as we speak that make Meth and Cocaine illegal but everyday tons of the stuff are smuggled into the Country or made right here at home and sold to folks who kill themselves with it.
Wouldn't it be better to simply make drugs legal and roll the millions of dollars spent trying to fight the losing "war on drugs" into treatment programs for people who truly wanted to get off of drugs.
Laws are not always the answer, Personal Responsibility is sometimes a better answer then more restrictive laws that only give the Government MORE powder and take away Freedom from it's Citizens.

 

[jimmyalbrecht]

Really, take a good look at what you just said. You want a LAW that will STOP a Convicted Felon from owning firearms then you said that "He threw away his right to firearms when he chose to break the law" so by your very words passing a law to stop him from having a firearm won't work because he's a "criminal" and doesn't follow laws in the first place.
All this so called "law" does is stop folks that may have messed up once in their life and who now have a felony conviction on their record from ever being able to protect themselves or their families in the future after they've rehabilitated themselves by serving their time in Prison.
Once you've paid for your crime you shouldn't continue to have to pay, it's just not Fair or Just on any level. If they're no longer a threat to society and can be released from Prison then they should get ALL of their Rights back, if they're still a threat then they should still be in jail. It's just that plain and simple.

Like the example of my father who has a non-violent felony on his record from 17 years ago, and he still cannot own a firearm and just recently obtained his right to vote again. It follows the idea that these rights are endowed to us by our creator meaning that man should have no right to take them away in any circumstance. TNFrank and myself are obviously strict Constitutionalists haha.

 

[TNFrank]

Like the example of my father who has a non-violent felony on his record from 17 years ago, and he still cannot own a firearm and just recently obtained his right to vote again. It follows the idea that these rights are endowed to us by our creator meaning that man should have no right to take them away in any circumstance. TNFrank and myself are obviously strict Constitutionalists haha.

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner.
If you did a crime and served your time then ALL Rights should be restored to you on your release. If you're not trusted to have all Rights restored then you should stay locked up until you can be or you die.
I did something "Stupid" when I was 19 years old. Got 3 years Probation out of it, upon completing my Probation one charge was dismissed the other was lowered to a Misdemeanor which I then had Expunged. Even after all that once the Brady Bill went into affect I had trouble buying firearms because "something" would show up during the background check. I had to get documentation showing what had happened and how I'd got my Rights Restored and had to send it in to TBI so that my File would reflect my status as "Legal" to purchase firearms. Still, even to this day I sometimes have problems and have to wait for hours to clear the background check even though I have my Tennessee Carry Permit and a Federal FFL Type 03 C&R License.
Once you allow ANY anti-gun laws to pass the door is open to more and more restrictive anti-gun laws to become "law" which furthers to erode the 2nd Amend. of the Constitution. We need a "Just say No!" program for firearms laws.

 

[capitalcityglock]

Thanks for sharing your point of view...

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner.
If you did a crime and served your time then ALL Rights should be restored to you on your release. If you're not trusted to have all Rights restored then you should stay locked up until you can be or you die.
I did something "Stupid" when I was 19 years old. Got 3 years Probation out of it, upon completing my Probation one charge was dismissed the other was lowered to a Misdemeanor which I then had Expunged. Even after all that once the Brady Bill went into affect I had trouble buying firearms because "something" would show up during the background check. I had to get documentation showing what had happened and how I'd got my Rights Restored and had to send it in to TBI so that my File would reflect my status as "Legal" to purchase firearms. Still, even to this day I sometimes have problems and have to wait for hours to clear the background check even though I have my Tennessee Carry Permit and a Federal FFL Type 03 C&R License.
Once you allow ANY anti-gun laws to pass the door is open to more and more restrictive anti-gun laws to become "law" which furthers to erode the 2nd Amend. of the Constitution. We need a "Just say No!" program for firearms laws.

I truly appreciate the perspective both you and JIMMYALBRECHT brought to this topic..I have a tendency of viewing things in the 'black and white'...thats the problem of being an accountant by education and a project manager as a profession. I am a firm believer in Personal Responsibility as I suspect both of you are. I am also a true believer in the system of laws we have in our wonderful republic. After hearing your perspectives, I now agree that banning firearms/ammunition possession, or for that matter, any other right following the completion of repayment of debt to society is wrong. But, it is the law of the land.

What is needed is more individuals such as you, that are enlightened, articulate, and passionate to take these concerns to our lawmakers to right the wrongs...Easier said than done, but probably the only remedy we have available to us. We live in a Rule Of Law society and must abide by them..Elect officials who truly represent the rights of the citizenry as proscribed by our founding fathers, not the interests of Washington politicos or big business. Each of our votes count...make it count..

Again, thanks for your perspective...much appreciated.