Stopped by a LEO

Discussion in 'Conceal & Open Carry' started by sbg2340, Dec 17, 2011.

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  1. sbg2340

    sbg2340 New Member

    There have been several threads on people who OC and getting stopped by police for it. Some have turned out OK (nice chat with the LEO) and others have not (ie. LEO coming out with guns draw, having OC person lay on floor, being verbally abusive, etc..)

    The threads have given a slew of information (document stuff, lawyer up, sue) and have also given a slew of LEO bashing along with spinning off various case laws, what the law is, etc...

    Seems like the same stuff is repeated over and over. Granted it happens to different members and some members here may be "newer" than others and thus may not have read the older threads.

    So with that in mind perhaps a sticky called An OC Guide to Protecting Your Rights is in order. Here is a list of items that I have picked up from various members and other sites regarding this issue.

    DOCUMENTING THE EVENT
    - Write a letter to the manager (and CC corporate office) of any establishment (if any) with security cameras where the incident takes place. Ask them to not destroy/re-record the video footage at location x for date y for time z as they may be used in an upcoming civil/criminal trial. Sign letter, make a copy and send via CERTIFIED MAIL with SIGNATURE confirmation.
    · Write down a complete time line of the events from before the incident, the incident and post incident.
    · Where were you coming from?
    · What were you doing prior to the event?
    · Why did you stop at this location?
    · Who was with you?
    · What did the LEO say?
    · How many of them were there?
    · What were their names? Badge #? LEO Agency?
    · What occurred?
    · How did you feel during this event?
    · What did you do after the event?
    · How did you feel after the event?
    · SIGN & DATE this statement.
    - Have any other witness in your party also write down what they saw. Have them SIGN & DATE their statement.

    - Have the statements notarized ASAP.

    - Take pictures of what you were wearing when the incident occurred

    - If possible carry with you an audio recording device. Under Indiana Law only one party needs to know that a recording is occurring for it to be legal. (IE. Since you are recording you ARE that one party). Remember if you have a cell phone chances are good it can record audio/video and take pictures as well use it!

    ACTION TO TAKE
    - File formal complaint with LEO agency and obtain file complaint number
    - Contact <<insert your county name here>> County Bar Association and ask them who specializes in Civil Rights cases.
    - Contact your attorney which you may have on retainer or have dealt with before.

    INFO TO HAVE ON HAND & REMEMBER WHEN TALKING TO LEO

    If you are being arrested; involved in any type of firearm issue; or anything in which an LEO is in your presence

    My name is <<insert your name>>. I feared for my life. I request legal counsel before I answer any questions. (Plus read the statements below)

    Non-Waiver of 4th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
    I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government.
    I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

    I do not consent to a search of my person, my belongings, my automobile, my home, or any other of my items. I also do not consent to any further detention of my person, my belongings, my automobile, or any other of my items.

    If you search or detain me without the requisite justification under the law, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.

    Non-Waiver of 5th, 6th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
    I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government. I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fifth, Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

    I hereby invoke my Sixth Amendment right to an attorney as well as my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. I will therefore remain silent until an attorney is provided.

    If you question or interrogate me in the absence of my attorney, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.
     
  2. jfirecops

    jfirecops New Member

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    "you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer."

    This part can be perceived as a threat in some localities. Most states have a certain amount of hours they can detain anyone for any reason without charging them, so if the officer feels threatened you are more likely to get legally harassed.
     

  3. ^theres a few hloes in that post......
    the ones you mentioned,
    and if you are arrested than you no longer have the right not to be searched, if your arrested in your vehicle than they can search it as well

    alot of LEO's take advantage of ppl that do not know the law and once they learn that you do know the gun laws it usually resolves an OC issue.
     
  4. G19C

    G19C New Member

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    If I had a Nickel for everytime someone "Told me their rights", I would be a rich man...LOL

    We have a criminal defense attorney in my area that does DUII cases that his clients hand out a card with "their rights" and that I "can't" search or impound their vehicle after being arrested for DUII. They get real pissed when they see the tow truck taking their vehicle to impound....
     
  5. NYSCourtOfficer

    NYSCourtOfficer New Member

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    Depending on where the open carry occurs, some officers feel there is a safety issue. You don't know if the gun the person is carrying truly is unloaded until you check the action. Civilians should understand this. On the other hand, yes, there are some of us in uniform who are "aggressive," when we don't need to be. Calmer heads need to prevail in open carry stops...and those of us in uniform need to remember...we are sworn to protect their right to carry openly, as we are sworn to uphold the Constitution.
     
  6. G19C

    G19C New Member

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    All good points! I will always assume the firearm you have is loaded. Besides that, I am not driving around looking to "harass" people and their rights. However, in our area we have our fair share of robberies, Burgs, etc. So if that just happended 2 blocks from the area, and I see a person walking with a firearm, you damn right I am going to stop that person. I only need a Reasonable Suspicion to stop you. I could just be asking if he/she saw anyone running by, etc. If that person immediately turns aggressive towards me, asking for my badge #, telling me they will contact my employer, etc; a bunch of red flags are going to go up.

    I have NO problems with people carrying. But we have "gang" members carrying also, should I drive by and wave when there are 25 calls from worried citizens?? Those people are also tax paying people as well. I didn't take an oath for just the OC guy...

    My advice is, be calm, let the officer become at ease with you for a moment, I don't know you from Adam.. He/She may just have a question about something non-related or you may match a description. Myself and anyone else on here working in, or has worked in LE knows how many officers are killed each year. It takes attending one funeral, or seeing your kids wave goodbye and wife not knowing if you will come home! I will be safe always, and if I hurt your feelings by stopping and telling you that 25 people called in and our scared; my duty is to them as much as you... Doesn't mean I am going to violate your rights! But if you start spewing "your rights" and want my badge #, and going to call my employer, etc., It will change the whole perception of how this contact is going to go.. In most cases, a simple chat, puts my mind at ease and I can tell the others that called in that its no problem. Probably shake your hand and be on my way.

    Yes, you will always have the "badge heavy" rookie officer. But for the most part, most are honest good people that will still respond to the guy that wanted their badge # home if they need help!
     
  7. havasu

    havasu Well-Known Member Supporter

    Well said G19C!
     
  8. this is the best advice of the day !

    talking about gang members ............ c'mon now your REALLY switching up the demagraphic here, we are talking about a guy like myself that gets out of his car (5 years ago) (with a valid CCW) with my gun on my side visable upon exiting the vehicle but covered by my shirt after that. A nosy lady sitting beside see's it (I observe her glaring at me) and calls the police.....at this point my family and I are in the store and slowly being surrounded by LEO's, two come over to me and assertivly ask me to step outside. Upon getting outside they start in with there spew of "a concerened citizen" and before they were done I produced my CCW. I started asking them if they knew the state gun laws and that if they neede a refresher that my attorney and I could provide one ! I was VERY frustrated that they just embarrassed myself and my family in a store inside my own community of in which I am very active politicaly and my business is well know and serves many ppl. Now this little stunt could have cost me alot (politicaly) if the right ppl would have been there or any customers to my business would have seen. I did not look suspect I had on a pair of Levi's and a button down plad columbia shirt and was walking with my wife and kids into the store. Finally a LEO showed up that knew me and made sure that the rookies that just embarassed me QUICKLY apologized that was not good enough I made them stand there for 30 minutes until my family came outside and demanded that they apologize to my family and tell them they had made a mistake, and they did.

    You just have some cops that think what they say goes and that is that ! These are the guys that are gonna preach the law to you the way they think it should be becuase you don't know any better, the guys that think they are the only ones that should have a gun on there side. Sadly half the LEO's in my area are this way lucky for me I know the guys that are seasoned LEO's I've practiced with them and frequent alot of local events with them or in support of them. I am the furthest thing from a guy that "can't stand cops" and "therer all crooks" BS, I have the utmost respect for these guys and go out of my way to not cuase them problems and show my support, these guys have a rough enough job as it is so do your self a favor ...............don't start waiving you political finger as soon as cop approaches you wait and get a feel for the situation and see if there is a need to .
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  9. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    Part 1

     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2011
  10. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    ACTION TO TAKE
    - File formal complaint with LEO agency and obtain file complaint number
    - Contact <<insert your county name here>> County Bar Association and ask them who specializes in Civil Rights cases.
    - Contact your attorney which you may have on retainer or have dealt with before.


    For what? Unless I missed something...there is NO specific scenario above???? What occurred that a complaint needs to be filed? Were you beaten to within an inch of your life? Were you simply questioned? What happened? Or is it that you are PISSED off because an officer was trying to do their job...there are NO specifics up there.

    INFO TO HAVE ON HAND & REMEMBER WHEN TALKING TO LEO

    If you are being arrested; involved in any type of firearm issue; or anything in which an LEO is in your presence


    Again...you NEED to be specific. IF you are carrying legally, either OC or CC...you are NOT going to be arrested unless YOU DO SOMETHING STUPID and violate the law. And...oh by the way...if you are being ARRESTED a LEO will most assuredly be in your presence.

    My name is <<insert your name>>. I feared for my life. I request legal counsel before I answer any questions. (Plus read the statements below)


    Close to "decent" advice...but you WILL pretty much guarantee yourself a trip to the lockup. Here's why...by jumping on the 5th Ammendment bandwagon and refusing to say ANYTHING...responding officers will NOT have a narrative description of the KEY elements of the incident, and YOU need to be clear that YOU are the victim, and YOU were acting in legal defense of your life.


    What is BETTER said is: "Officer...that person lying over there attacked me with a knife/club/gun. The weapon is laying by his right hand. I was FORCED TO FIRE TO STOP HIS ATTACK. I want to cooperate with you, but I am very shaken up right now, and will wait until cousel is here before I answer any more questions."


    You have just claimed victim status and pointed out key evidence to support YOUR version of the incident, and guess what...NOW IT WILL GET IN THE OFFICER'S REPORT THAT THERE WAS A KNIFE/GUN/WHATEVER in or near the hand of the attacker.

    Non-Waiver of 4th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
    I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government.
    I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

    I do not consent to a search of my person, my belongings, my automobile, my home, or any other of my items. I also do not consent to any further detention of my person, my belongings, my automobile, or any other of my items.

    If you search or detain me without the requisite justification under the law, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.

    Non-Waiver of 5th, 6th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
    I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government. I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fifth, Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

    I hereby invoke my Sixth Amendment right to an attorney as well as my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. I will therefore remain silent until an attorney is provided.

    If you question or interrogate me in the absence of my attorney, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.[/QUOTE]

    Um...if you are BEING arrested then the officer has EVERY RIGHT to search you, your baggage, your automobile or conveyance, the area surrounding the incident AND it is "INCIDENTAL AND PURSUANT TO ARREST". So forget all that crap above. Unless you are a Constitutional Law specialist...you WILL "talk your way into jail" by assuming you know the law better than an officer, OR MORE IMPORTANTLY the INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW IN THE COURTS IN THIS JURISDICTION.


    AND...threatening an officer with lawsuits, or whatever...is NOT going to make that officer more inclined to be empathetic. That's crap we hear ALL the time. Usually from crackheads, tweakers, and other legal experts. You know what WE hear? "Bark Bark Bark...Yip Yip Yip...Blah Blah Blah...Meow Meow Meow...." It's like a chihuahua barking at you. You hear some noise...but it really don't mean much.


    Just follow this advice: Do what the officer tells you. Comply with reasonable instructions. It WILL get worked out. If you have done nothing wrong, no one is going to FRAME YOU, or plant evidence or any other TV crap like that. If you are outside your vehicle...then there is NO reason to search it, and you can tell the officer that IN A POLITE manner. This will get you a LOT more credibility than trying to jump on a high horse and tell an officer with YEARS OF REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE on the street and IN COURT ROOMS how the cow ate the cabbage, and to spew your recently learned phrases from the internet.

    It's funny (almost) how many people who thought they knew the law and it's application wound up TALKING THEMSELVES INTO JAIL by arguing with officers and being a internet attorney. The best advice is always to remain calm, remain reasonable, and it WILL get worked out. If you immediately go to "pleadin' tha fifth"...the officer has NO CHOICE but to ARREST YOU and take you into custody to let you PAY FOR AN ATTORNEY so you can be questioned a WHOLE LOT MORE AND A WHOLE LOT LONGER because you took bad internet armchair lawyer advice.

    Seriously...I don't want to come off like a jerk. But the deal is...if you are stopped by an officer they WILL have probable cause, ot reasonable suspicion to do so. Number one...we do NOT have time to dick around bothering law adibing folks for the fun of it. There are probably five or six calls backed up on the MDT that we need to handle too.

    I am not saying to give away the farm...but there are certain things that you need to tell an officer. Are you carrying a weapon? If so, let them know. Just as a courtesy. If you are up front with that info, you are going to get a LOT more consideration than if we have to find out on our own. Some surprises are not good surprises.

    "Officer...I just want to let you know. I am legally armed, I have a permit and my weapon is holstered _______". What would you like me to do?" Note: The above statement does NOT sound like "I GOT A GUN!" even to a wet behind the ears rookie. You have simply told the officer that you didn't want him to be surprised, and NOW you are on a footing of honest dealing, and believe me WE appreciate that. Now everyone concerned can relax just a tad, and get things worked out.

    You just gave the officer some key info, and most likely (here in AZ especially) I am going to tell you something like..."Super, thanks for letting me know. I'll make you a deal...you don't play with yours, and I won't have to play with mine."
     
  11. G19C

    G19C New Member

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    Wsar, read my last line, it says "there are badge heavy ROOKIE officers" however, you said "a guy like me".. I don't know who you are. We recently just had a guy in his early 60's arrested for holding up multiple banks. Looked like a "regular guy". My job will always be to come home safe, always. I am not saying to call the damn swat team in for a guy carrying, but lets remember, your "store citizens" are going to be alarmed and an officer has responsibilites to all. If a person is going to OC in a store, bank, etc, its going to alarm people. Just like the officer responding to 20 calls about it, doesn't know you from Adam.

    I'm not condoning bad officer conduct. But when daily we have this bank robbed (by the average looking Joe), or 2 weeks ago a random drive shooting by that killed one, left another with a bullet lodged, my guard is going to go up. I would imagine any officer would. An officer can't "disregard" people calling in concerned, and if I approach a guy with a gun, I want to feel comfortable. More times than not, I will BS with the guy and ask what caliber, how he like his particular firearm, etc . But I will never let the 1% become complacent and risk my life or the citizens. If you want to OC thats fine. But if people that OC expect that all LEO are not going to take a second look and are at the ready to start demanding an attorney, asking for badge #'s, and quoting their rights, it will probably raise some red flags..

    You are probably a nice law abiding person. But walk down the streets of New York, or many other cities with a firearm in the open and think no one is going to call the police concerned.... Like I said, I don't condone bad officer conduct, but I would like to let other concerned tax paying citizens know that I am comfortable and they can be as well. Thats all I am saying. My reply was in response to telling the officer you "can't" do this, you "can't" do that, and I want your badge #, and my attorney, oh and by the way in case you forgot mister officer, let me tell you verbatim the constitution; and expect the officer to give you a sticker badge and say have a nice day, then those people should maybe consider getting a CCW and carrying concealed at all times avoiding this.

    But yes, you are right, there are as I mentioned always going to be the new rookie officer that just got off his training and stops everything that moves... But most officers are good, honest people that are not their to violate your rights. Sorry you had a run in with some that were more aggresive, and again, I don't condone or train officers that way...
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2011
  12. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    Look...no good cop wants to hassle anyone. We especially don't want to hassle Joe Average because WE are also Joe Average. We're not above the law, we are not arbiters of the law or the triers of the facts. We enforce the law, and we have to abide by the law.

    Are there jerkoff cops? Absolutely...but they are in the minority.

    Are there jerkoff Joe Average? Absolutely. I can tell you this from experience.

    The fact is, we CAN work together to get things straightened out but a that REALLY depends on YOU. Come at an officer with hostility, and you are going to get treated as a hostile. However, if you are reasonable and calm, and give the officer NO REASON to think you are a douchebag...then things will go a lot more smoothly for everyone.

    If someone is in your neighborhood, near your home and children, and he happens to look a bit like YOU...wouldn't you want to know a cop was on hand to deal with it?
     
  13. G19C

    G19C New Member

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    I 100% agree! You are correct Sir!
     
  14. sbg2340

    sbg2340 New Member

    touched a nerve

    Wow thats nice "Arizonalawman" i must have touch a nerve with my post , it was'nt ment to strike out a police afficer's in my city or your's , just some helpful info. for those who just don't know. keep the peace , you leo's don't know everything , you let your badge dictate the law coming out of your mouth.
     
  15. jfirecops

    jfirecops New Member

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    An officer is more likely to loose a civil suite for profiling than harassment for open carry. An officer is not allowed to stop because they look like a certain demographic and not stop because the person looks "normal", this is a federal statute for civil rights. They are obligated to act when a complaint is filed just to make sure.

    I have witnessed someone get 7 days at the county workhouse when they were stopped for speeding, 10 over, but was mouthy and told the officer he knew his rights he was going to sue the officer for civil rights violation. We see who lost here. The best thing is to be friendly and helpful. It is possible to be both protective and helpful, it is all in the wording.
     
  16. Dirty J

    Dirty J This forum sucks.


    Lol. How many "gang" members do you encounter that open carry?

    If anything, this is an argument to leave the OC'er alone.

    Why would someone illegally carrying a firearm draw attention to themselves by openly displaying it?
     

  17. I don't really disagree with your thoughts at all, per say......

    A guy on my property around my family will be dealt with by me, and I will sort it out afterwards ! let the cops worry about the kid touchers and drug dealers hanging out on ther corner.

    Your post seems to gear toward the fact that as a LEO you have the right to not be disagreed with or for somone to act like a dick ! and your SIG kinda verify's that, but in reality you work for mepaid by my tax dollars and alot of guys forget that.
    Maybe i'm thinking too far into what your saying, and I am in noway attacking you personaly, just adding to the conversation.
     
  18. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    But it's NOT helpful info if it's BAD info. You're right, we DON'T know everything, but you can rest assured that we know a pisspot more about the application of local statutes than oh say....YOU do, or any other armchair Perry Mason.

    You didn't describe a situation wherein that INFO might be useful. You gave bad advice based upon what real world experience? You, yourself said it is from other forums and members of other sights...what credential? What experience? What training?

    You gave bad info based upon your vast experience as what?

    If someone is involved in a self defense situation and they use your rambling script...they will ONLY get deeper into a mess.

    Yes...it touched a nerve...the nerve that doesn't want to see a good man/woman go down for saying the wrong thing.

    When you deal with an officer, the absolute BEST policy is do NOT lie. Do NOT be hostile, and do NOT get on a soap box.

    Look...I am the most pro-gun, pro-carry, pro-2A guy you will ever meet. I think it's silly NOT to excercise your 2A rights. I think it's irresponsible, and just plain dangerous given the state of society in which we now find ourselves.

    But what I am ANTI is....BAD INFO.

    How many poor slobs do you think are in prison because of bad info? I am guessing there are too many, because ONE is too many.

    How about poor slobs that are DEAD because of bad info? Some poor bastard got himself dead because some douchetard spent a Saturday afternoon getting himself the most basic of NRA certs, didn't learn THE LAW as applied by the court in his jurisdiction, hung out a shingle, started a "Tactical Grooviness And Awesomeness" shooting school and got fed bad info? ONE is too many...and I know ONE who almost got killed because of some shyster that spouts info very much like you did.

    The guy was a cab driver in Tucson, and was robbed and STABBED by an assailant armed with a knife. The cabbie didn't shoot him because his NRA certified instructor told him he could ONLY use a knife against a knife, or a club against a club. Bad info=bad results.

    I was the responding officer...I got there just before fire-ems.

    How about the guy who follows bad advice and things spin out of control while dealing with officers and winds up in cuffs when there was NO INITIAL REASON to be in cuffs....but he followed bad advice from an armchair lawyer or "tactical guru" and used that advice and got arrested?

    When dealing with officers:

    1. Be honest.
    2. Listen to instructions.
    3. Absolutely ask WHY you have been stopped. You have every right to know. But give the situation a second or two to calm down. Take a breath. If the officer asks you to keep your hands in plain sight...DO IT. You may not know that a violent offender dressed similarly to you has just raped a girl two blocks away. But believe in the fact the officer has a damned good reason for having you keep your hands in plain sight....his safety and YOURS. If you disregard that instruction, make a move that A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD BELIEVE WAS CONSISTENT WITH DRAWING A WEAPON and the officer dusts you like an old end table...then YOU JUST DIED OF STUPID.

    You didn't mention ANY of that in your post.

    What if the rapist in the above example committed that rape with a gun?

    The officer is dealing with a person matching the description of a suspect who is known to be ARMED AND DANGEROUS. Do you think that NOW...in a tense moment is the time to start shouting how much law you know?

    NO!...now is the time for calm. Listen to what the officer has to say. In very short order, if you DO listen, and assuming you are NOT the scumbag...things will be worked out and you will be on your way knowing there are good men and women working to find the scumbag. Your rights will NOT have been violated either in reality or your imagination, and your day will most certainly end a LOT better than it would have if you started spewing that junk you advised others to spew.

    Cops are NOT perfect. ESP is NOT standard equipment. If it were...then that broad from Pyschic Network would be in charge.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2011
  19. The seasoned LEO's around here seem to kinda enjoy civilian carry, maybe they veiw it as we are here to help if needed and that we can defend ourselves if needed so they maybe will not have to put there life on the line to protect mine.

    oh yeah and another thing about "gang members"...you don't see an OC weapon on a leagal gun owner !
    90% of the time that you see an ilegal weapon, it's already been used. Locally it's the anti-gunners that run to the cops upon seeing an OC weapon.
     
  20. I think the nerve you struck is based on inacurate info.

    He beat me to it !
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2011
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