Situation that happened Saturday Night figured I'd share

Discussion in 'Glock Forum' started by PUNISHER, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. Figured I'd share this with the site to see what you guys think.


    Saturday night, I went out to meet some friends. We met up in front of this Lounge in the parking lot. So we are standing out side of our cars just shooting the ****. Security see's us and does nothing cause he knows we are cool and he does his rounds to make sure no one is breaking into any ones cars. This little short older guy is walking around the lot stopping every one. I say to my self yeah he is looking for beer money or something. Older man walks right up on a young couple. Old man tries to grab the women's arm and the younger man pushes him to the ground. Old man jumps back up like he was on a pogo stick and gets in the younger mans face. Now these two are arguing. Talking about blowing each others heads off. Every one is laughing and almost egging them on, except me.
    Here's why, I knew how that old man got there.
    I saw him and a younger dude pull up in a F150 earlier. So while every one is laughing and focused on those two. I'm watching the F150. Young guy in the truck starts moving around inside of it.
    I say to my self, this isn't going to go down like this. You have got to be kidding me.
    I start to think, if he jumps out this truck and starts shooting. I'm I going to involve my self in this situation by trying to stop this guy?
    Reason being cause he would have killed the younger guy cause ill put money on it he would have never seen it coming. The guys i was standing right next too wouldn't have even seen it coming.
    I think again am I even in the right legally to get in the middle of this? Can i live with my self if I turn and burn knowing I could have probably saved this guy. All these questions start playing in my head.

    Regardless the guy never gets out the truck, just says nothing and looks on watching. Older guy continues walking around begging people for change. He makes it over to us and ask for 50cent. I start to tell him if you don't watch your self your going to lose your life over 50 cent. But I say nothing.

    Guess my question is if that situation would have went south what do you think you would have done?
     
  2. parkeral

    parkeral New Member

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    Thats a really difficult situation to deal with. I'm not a law enforcement officer or anything but I would probaby have had to do something. I would've felt really bad if anything happened to them and I knew I couldve possibly done something to stop it.
     

  3. IF he got out and started with the anger and he had a gun in his hand I wouldnt hesitate to give him some more ammo in this situation.
     
  4. BLCKWLF

    BLCKWLF GrassHopper

    Defense of a third person. I would defend the innocent as long as I live.
     
  5. series11

    series11 Hail Commifornia Lifetime Supporting Member

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    That is a tough one. Interesting though, I'll have to think about it.
     
  6. acarson529c

    acarson529c New Member

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    Depending on where you live if he jumped out brandishing a weapon you would have been okay to defend the guy. If he shot and killed the man before you had a chance to respond, and your life wasn't in danger, I believe you would have to retreat.
     
  7. jimmyalbrecht

    jimmyalbrecht Glockn Rollin

    Because you were there and saw the whole situation, I say you would be in the right, but I am no lawyer. I would have had to do something as well in that situation. If you had not been there to see the whole thing unfold, and the guy just got out of the car witha gun, that may have been a different story. The guy with the gun could have been defending himself for all we know if you hadn't of seen the whole thing.
     
  8. series11

    series11 Hail Commifornia Lifetime Supporting Member

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    yeah I agree with this. Would your friends have helped you in the situation? If I was going to get involved I would have tried to ease the hostility and try to stop the escalation before drawing my weapon.
     
  9. First off thanks for the replies guys. Keep em comming cause Ive been going through it over and over in my head.


    Nothing wrong with that. I know some people that feel the way you two above feel.

    Yeah since this is Missouri that is exactly what I was thinking about. Im like, should I run, or can I help this guy?

    Yeah young guy could have lost his life or the wrong person could be jailed or the guy could have gotten away after shooting him. Who knows

    1 of my friends yes, he is also a CCW holder and had his gun on him also. I know once he would have saw me shooting he would instantly thrown him self into the situation. We are close like that. Which a reason why thinking before I act was even more important cause my boy might not have questioned anything.

    I keep thinking about it cause I know if it would have happen wrong I would have much time to figure out what the hell to do. Seconds before someone loses their life and its act or don't act. Id like to be better repaired if I or anyone I know gets into a situation like that where they have to make a choice.
     
  10. I honestly couldnt live with myself knowing I turned my back on an innocent human needing help. They have a family, they have loved ones... Imagine if the roles were reversed and you were the person needing assistance from a man with a gun.

    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
     
  11. jimmyalbrecht

    jimmyalbrecht Glockn Rollin

    Golden Rule. Pretty simple, but so hard to live by sometimes haha.
     
  12. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Sponsor Lifetime Supporting Member

    Here's my 2 cents...I would have walked away. None of your business...just because you are in proximity

    of an altercation does not mean you have an obligation to act. Self defense is one thing, jumping into the middle

    of something that really doesn't involve you is not tactically sound or prudent as far as you described the

    situation. Just because you are armed does not mean you have the right to act...or the duty to act.

    Two hot heads arguing and a gun "might" come into play...I would have walked away, if for no other

    reason than to get out of the line of fire. If I were you, I would research the law in your state / locale and let us know what

    the law says about you acting in a third party situation...what is your duty...and what are the consequences of those actions.

    I look forward to your report on that...
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  13. acarson529c

    acarson529c New Member

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    I completely agree. It's a bad gamble where I gain nothing. Think of it this way. I make a bet with you for $100. If I win I get your $100. If you win you get to keep your money. It's a fools bet. Walk away. Call the Police if you're really worried.
     
  14. jonm61

    jonm61 New Member

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    In the situation described, IF a gun had come out, and you believed the guy's life was in danger, you would (in most, if not all, states) be justified in taking action to save the guy's life. You are allowed to use lethal force in defense of self, or others, or to stop a forcible felony (i.e. rape or robbery). Those are generally safe circumstances, but as others have said, find out the laws of your state.

    In the situation described, I would've acted if the gun had come out. Saving lives is in my blood.

    Years ago, I found myself in a similar situation, though I was more directly involved. I was with my GF and a handful of teenagers who worked for her, at the beach. We'd spent the day at the beach and several hours on the boardwalk. We were getting ready to leave. We'd come in two cars and in the other car was one white female and three black males. In my car was my GF & I, my dog and one other kid. The other car was loaded and ready to go; she already had the car in reverse, waiting for me. I had to walk the dog before we left, so I told her (the other driver) and she put her car back in park.

    I was about 50 yards away and just behind a wall with the dog, when I hear yelling. I came around the wall and saw a guy screaming at the girl and her three passengers were out of the car and trying to open the trunk. In a second I assessed the situation and had the thought "please don't make me have to shoot someone." I got quickly back to the cars, walked up to the girl (everyone was out of the cars at this point), looked her in the eye and said firmly "Get in the car." She said "but he..." and I cut her off, saying "GET. IN. THE. CAR!" and glancing at her passengers, who still hadn't gotten the trunk open. She looked over, saw what they were doing and said "OK". Everyone got loaded up and we left.

    It turns out that this older, drunk, guy and his adult son had been in their car, waiting for the spot the girl was parked in. There were several other empty spaces only a few spaces away. When she put the car back in park, they went to one of the other spaces and parked. The older guy gets out, yelling and screaming at them over them waiting and then having to park further down. Total BS. He dropped the "N" word, among other choice words/phrases, when he saw the three boys were black and the girl was white.

    I still don't know what they were going after in the trunk. Could've been the tire iron, could've been a gun. I didn't ask. Didn't want to know. All I know was that if I hadn't verbally diffused the situation, and one or more of those boys had gotten weapons of some sort out of that trunk, I might have had to shoot one of them. The whole incident, from me telling her it was going to be a minute while I walked the dog until we were all loaded up and headed out was less than 5 minutes, but they were 5 of the longest minutes in my life.
     
  15. jimmyalbrecht

    jimmyalbrecht Glockn Rollin

    I absolutely hate situations like that man. Your blood gets to going, and then you feel sick when you come down from it because of all the adrenaline. Good call extricating yourself and others from the situation. That is part of being a responsible gun owner; knowing when to get out of the situation.
     
  16. That situation turned out perfect for you.
    It would be nice if every one could think quick like that.
     
  17. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

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    Generally speaking (quarterbacking comfortably from my armchair), I'd try to solve the problem higher upstream. That is, maybe diffuse the scenario before it gets out of hand. And, maybe point Security's attention to the partner in the truck. Maybe give the old guy 50 cents myself to have him move on. Maybe offer to buy the young guy and his girl a drink in the Lounge to remove him from the situation. (Explain to him later in the Lounge what was going on with the partner in the truck so that he doesn't lose face with his girl.) Like jonm61 posted above, sometimes you gotta be forceful with your tone, sometimes you can be persuasive and humorful, sometimes it's as simple as changing the subject. In all cases, I'd keep an eye on the partner in the truck.

    It's not an easy situation when it's live, I understand intrinsically. Personally, I wouldn't be able to walk away (either) without trying to do something to help the imminent situation. Per your report, Partner was just rustling around inside the truck. We don't know yet whether he's reloading his 9mm or spreading mustard-mayo on his ham sammie. There's yet a couple more steps before self-defense and defense of others comes into play albeit short, rapid and potentially violent steps. If Partner pulls a gun, you'd hopefully see it coming when he exits the truck. That could possibly be one extra moment to yell "Gun!" or "Run!" or both. Or something else.

    These are all hypothetical posits at this point. However, to force the question and thus my response as to what would I do if Partner came out locked and cocked, I'd have to say that the phrase "last resort" would be on my mind the whole time; however, defensive shooting is indeed still a resort. So, yeah, I would cover the partner if he came out of the truck with a weapon. Would I pull the trigger? I know it's vastly easier to type "yeah, I would" than to actually do it but that's my sentiment from this side of the keyboard.

    Good post, good question. It's making me think about what I would do. That's invaluable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  18. Donn

    Donn Active Member

    Gotta agree with Shooter on this one. The one thing the instructor drilled into us in CPL class was your license permits you the right of self defense, period. Hard as it might be not to get involved, the scenerio described above is not self defense. Dealing with your conscience might be tough, but get into it, and you could very well wind up in court, then a prison cell.
     
  19. stox882

    stox882 New Member

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    Donn, I don't know who your CPL instructor is, but he should have his certificate revoked. As a CPL holder, you should be a sheepdog, not a sheep. You have the right to protect others whose lives are in danger. IMO, if you are a CPL holder, you are a PROTECTOR. That is why you must always continue to train and learn.

    I totally agree with jonm61.
     
  20. Matthew780

    Matthew780 Very Sensitive Guy (^;)

    To the O.P., from a West Virginia Law point of view:

    In West Virginia, you have the right to stand your ground in defense of self or others, or property, with any force, including lethal force, with no restrictions, as long as you have a legal right to be where you are and are not engaged in criminal activity (excluding certain locations like Charleston, this State's Capitol). That said, if the man in the truck got out and yielded his gun FIRST, you would have been justified in whatever action you felt led to take, INCLUDING walking away. Under WV law you are not "obligated" to any action. It is also beneficial to note, that until a weapon has actually been drawn, there may be an opportunity to diffuse the situation, which would always be preferable to any defense.

    It is vital that scenario's like this be thought through and the LAW IN YOUR STATE be clearly and correctly understood by YOU, or it will be inevitable that when the SHTF, you will no doubt be hesitating as you process all of this. Forethought, knowledge AND conclusions PRIOR to any incident can likely determine whether you live, die, spend the rest of your life in prison, are executed by the authorities, or live normally in freedom after the incident.

    Just recently, a very small roadside market had an attempted robbery. Out of no where, a man and his wife pulled onto the lot in a pickup truck. The man entered the store with a shotgun and commenced attempting to rob the store with the employee and gunpoint. Immediately, the perp was shot dead by a CC customer. The perp was the one that suffered for his decision. His wife was arrested as an accomplice. There was no injury to anyone else in the store.
    All turned out well. Or did it?

    The customer that shot the perp wasn't detained. He wasn't treated like a criminal. The Sheriff more than understood the situation. The CC carry patron left the store unharmed after deploying his right to defend himself and others. He had clearly thought this scenario through and acted without hesitation, within the law, as was his right.

    But he (shooter) still has to come to terms with the fact that he had to take another human life, which in reality, is a much more personally engrossing thing than the "fly-by" comments people tend to make sometimes in discussion of such a thing.

    Me? I "think" I would have done the same thing... I even know the cashier personally. It is just my nature to defend the helpless IF at all possible (which most times it's not). I hope this never has to happen with me involved. But if it does, I hope I'll have it thought through before-hand.

    The outcome depends on two things:

    1. The Law: Know what your laws are in your state and even your own town ordinances. I know it's a pain in the rear to keep up with. But it's part of the world we live in. Then determine your options from that knowledge.
    2. Your "self": Some people cannot deploy "lethal" force. If you are one of these individuals, find out now... BEFORE your life or the life of others hinges on your actions. NEVER get caught in an "in-between" state, trying to "decide" what you'll do. That could cost you your life and/or the lives of others.
    I understand that it's easier to talk about such things and how totally different it is to be under fire during a real incident. But I think it's important we at least "strive" to arrive at some sort of conclusion before-hand, if at all possible.


    Good O.P. and supporting advise. The more of this we "think through", the more responsible and legitimately effective we can be, whether we take action, or walk away.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012