Glock Forum banner
1 - 20 of 78 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
Good evening everyone:

I just purchased my first handgun, a Glock 17 third generation. I live in Oakland, originally from Europe. I am not wild about guns in general, but things are getting a little wild around here. When the **** hits the fan I want to be able to defend myself and my loved ones. I will be picking up my gun two weeks from now (California law) and take a couple of handgun safety classes, and training on the range. I know the basics but it's all about training, so safe gun handling becomes second nature.

Two questions:

1. Any recommendations as to ammunition?
2. Any recommendations regarding hearing protection?

Thanks,
Peter
Howdy from Wyoming. Where in Europe do you hail from? I lived in Belgium, Bavaria, and the Netherlands for a number of years.
Ammunition? Try different types and determine which gives the best accuracy with your pistol. Availability is also important.
I shoot factory ammo when it's available and doesn't cost and arm and a leg and keep some in the safe but I mostly reload ammo for all my firearms except the 22 calibers.
Hearing protection. You're going to get a lot of responses based on personal preferences. I have an old set of Peltor earmuffs that I like and I keep a couple pairs of foam ear plugs in my range bag just in case I need them.
My advice; talk to your training instructors, other shooters, and find something that not only protects your hearing but is comfortable.
In addition get a holster that is both easy for you to use and comfortable and extra magazines and a pouch to carry them in and last but certainly not least; get something to securely store your pistol and ammunition in.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp.............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
Thanks - I'm from the Netherlands originally. Had to relinquish my Dutch citizenship when I naturalized to US citizen several years ago. Some of my friends and co-workers thought I was crazy since I already had a Green card, but being a US citizen is important to me. I want to vote here, have no plans to move back to Europe. I actually love living in California, it's not perfect and yes the laws are a little crazy sometimes (and the rear estate prices are totally insane in the SF Bay Area) but the scenery and climate are hard to beat year around.

No holster for me because California is not an open carry State and getting a license for concealed carry is difficult to get, I wouldn't qualify as far as I know. You have to lock the gun in the trunk with the ammo separate.
I lived in Amsterdam and worked as a private contractor Harley Davidson technician for about a year and while it's a fun place to party it's much too crowded and expensive to live there.
The smaller places like Breda, Tilburg, Eindhoven, and Nijmegen are cheaper and much more pleasant and I hope to be able to go to Assen for the MotoGP races next year.
I also lived and worked outside of Munich Bavaria for a while but overall I preferred being in the Flemish part of Belgium where I stayed for a bit more than 3 years.
From 1953 to 1968 as a child and teenager I lived in Southern California and actually watch Disneyland get completed and opened but there is is no amount of money or type of incentive to entice me to live there now.
A holster is a convenient way to carry your pistol while at the range or if you can find someplace out in the country to shoot. For transporting it in your car I recommend something like this which can also be used to hold ammo if it has to be locked up separately while being transported.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp....................
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
Cool ... yeah, I hear you about Amsterdam. Amsterdam is a bit like NYC, cool place to live but $$$ and crowded. Plus, lots of people living in Amsterdam and the "Randstad" in general tend to look down upon the rest of the Netherlands as "peasants". Much in the way that some folks in SF or NYC like to look down on the people living in the "flyover States". Ha! Lots of parallels in other countries as well, people living in Paris tend to view people from the French countryside as peasants. It's all very narrow minded really. That said I lived in Amsterdam for well over a decade when I worked for a big law firm, but was born and raised in Eindhoven and studied at the Maastrict university (beautiful old town all the way down south, with cobblestone streets in the city center and walls built by the Romans, etc.).
I never lived in Eindhoven, Breda or the other places I mentioned but really liked visiting them, and Maastrict like Bruge, is a beautiful old town and a work of art. I detested Paris, like NYC it's crowded, dirty, crime ridden, and full of people that look down on everybody who's not from there. Parisians even look down on other Parisians if they don't live in the "right" part of town. :)
You be careful and stay safe out there in SF and if you ever get a chance check out the Rockies and the Great Plains.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp.............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
I don't know. If you look at all the mass shootings in the last couple of decades - and by "mass shooting" I mean some guy shooting people randomly in school, or nightsclubs, or churches, randomly - the shooter was always some guy with severe mental issues. Guys like that shouldn't be able to get guns, wouldn't you agree?

In the Uvalde school shooting there were plenty of armed police officers, but instead of going in they waited outside for a full hour, and they even prevented parents with guns from going in. How idiotic is that? Laws in Texas aren't exactly restrictive, and yet here you are.

I don't know whether this law is the answer but these mass shootings in schools sicken me.
The present system has already proven itself to be a failure on numerous occasions where people passed an NICS background check and legally purchased firearms after being deemed unfit to have them, the shooter in Buffalo NY for example, and this political stunt won't improve anything.
This was created, supported, and passed by members of both Parties to give the sheeple the impression that these politicians are "working for the people's safety and security" and to aid them in keeping their places at the tax payer funded feed trough.
As I have said before, if anti firearm individuals and groups were serious about doing something positive in regards to the firearms problem we have in the US then why have they never asked the responsible firearm owners of the US for our ideas, suggestions, and assistance?
"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience." Albert Camus
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp....................
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
There are two things here: 1. gun safety at the range and 2. gun free zones.

Yes, gun safety at the range makes perfect sense, as does the sign that you display.

But "gun free zones" placards at businesses ... do they actually work?

I am a Red Cross blood platelet donor, I donate platelets every two weeks.

There is a sign at at the door of the donation center where I go, informing me that I cannot carry concealed arms.

I don't even know why anyone would want to carry a concealed weapon when he or she is about to donate blood or blood platelets.

Or maybe it's to warn off criminals, about to steal blood platelets?

But hey, this is California. ;)
While ultra restrictive firearms laws and regulations very likely do create safer and better qualified legal firearm owners they don't keep criminals and crazies from acquiring firearms and killing and injuring people.
The people of Norway found this out in 2011 and unfortunately were once again reminded of this just a couple days ago.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp.............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
So, explain Detroit, NOLA, St Louis, Memphis, and Baltimore. Just by eliminating stats from those 5, the US goes from #192 to #3 in safe countries.
There are some standouts. Just eliminate Chicago, Cleveland, Baton Rouge, Little Rock, and KC.
That might carry us to the safest country in the world. Funny haw that works and who are running the mentioned above.
View attachment 271622
What exactly is your question? To obtain a firearm legally in Norway and most of the rest of Europe requires, among other things, passing a very stringent background check and an extensive firearms safety and shooting course. This mandatory training results is some very competent legal firearm owners.
In addition many European countries have mandatory military service requirements which gives a large portion of their general public, even those who never own or shoot a firearm after their military service, training in basic firearms safety and handling.
The overall result is that a large percentage of their legal citizens and firearm owners are better trained and more familiar with firearm safety and handling than an equal percentage of legal US citizens and firearm owners.
On the other hand while their very strict firearm laws and regulations do make acquiring firearms illegally much more expensive and difficult it doesn't entirely prevent criminals and crazies from doing so.
Statistics; such wonderfully elastic things. They can be made to prove whatever you want them to prove. MacNamara and Kissinger used statistics to prove the US was winning in Vietnam. Dubbya's administration did the same in Iraq and Afghanistan. Every US administration since 1937, when weed was first criminalized, has used statistics to prove that the War On Drugs is working.
A friend of mine that works with statistics once proved to me that based on actual but carefully chosen statistics per capita there were more acts of firearm related crimes and violence in Great Britain than the US.
Anti firearm individuals and groups have used the same statistics you offered as examples but by spreading the numbers out over entire states rather than just focusing on cities they can prove that their ideas work.
As I said, statistics are wonderfully elastic things.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp................
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
"They were teachers in my country of birth, the Netherlands. The US is completely different from the Netherlands"
You definitely got that right. The education systems in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, and most of the rest of western Europe are so much better and more advanced that the US education system that they really can't be compared.
I worked as an instructor at the MMI (Motorcycle Mechanics Institute) Phoenix campus for several years and it was truly disheartening to see how uneducated and unprepared the students just out of high school were.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp................
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
"how can we keep guns out of the hands of nutcases that plan to go a shooting spree in schools, churches, etc.?"
How about applying analytic thought to the problem? First step; identify the problem, which in this case means realizing and admitting that there are actually two types of problems with firearms in the US. They overlap but are different.
There are the actions of criminals and crazies with firearms which result in crimes, deaths, and injuries and are usually intentional.
Then there are the actions of legal but untrained or poorly trained individuals with firearms which result in crimes, deaths, and injuries and are usually unintentional.
The problems cannot be solved by lumping them together and attempting to create a one size fits all solution. Nor can they be solved unless and until responsible firearm owners take an active part in the problem solving process.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp..................

PS: I didn't want to divert the discussion so responded to your comment on education with a PM.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
To address the illegal side of the problem. There are already a multitude of laws and regulations that are "suppose" to keep criminals and crazies (mentally unstable if you wish to be politically correct) from obtaining firearms but criminals rarely buy their firearms legally and even when someone is officially listed as a crazy, like the young man in Buffalo, flaws in the existing system and the unwillingness of different law enforcement agencies to share information with each other allow them to slip through the cracks and legally obtain firearms. Or if they are flagged by the system and denied a legal purchase they obtain them illegally, as has been the case in several other shootings.
The young man in Uvalde though not officially listed as a crazy was considered unstable by those who knew him and had been brought to the attention of authorities but nothing was done about him. In this case it was not a failure of the firearm regulating system but a lack of a real health care system in the US.
To address the legal side of the problem there is a simple initial step. Require all people that want to buy a firearm from a licensed dealer to show that they have completed a comprehensive firearms safety and shooting course before they can do so.
As I said these problems will not be solved by more of the same laws that have already proven ineffective and by attempting to create magic silver bullet one size fits all solution.
In actuality though I honestly think that many of both the anti and pro firearms groups and politicians don't really want to solve these problems.
Instead they prefer them to continue so that they can continue to have their names in the spotlight and continue to gather all those dollars in contributions.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp...............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
I would agree with the good Dr. Tramp, but would add the caveat that firearms safety should be added to the school curriculum. You could shoot both handguns and rifles when I was in high school, and could take rifle courses as a PE elective. We were taught a healthy respect for firearms, and we had NO issues with guns being used for violence. Of course, we all carried knives, but no one was stabbing each other either. Perhaps it has nothing to do with weapons, and everything to do with cultural rot.
I would take the idea a step further and encourage and allow parents to participate in the school sponsored courses with their kids and encourage businesses to sponsor firearm safety courses for their employees.
All strictly voluntary but presented and encouraged very positively.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp..................
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
"That is actually a really good idea"
As I said it would be an initial step but something that could be built upon because it's "Common Sense".
Responsible firearm owners have many such "common sense" ideas that could be applied to the firearms problems but we're never included in the firearms debate.
Unfortunate, since contrary to the way firearm owners are usually portrayed by anti firearm individuals and groups we're as concerned with the firearms problems in the US as any other thinking citizen; perhaps even more so because we're the ones getting blamed for them.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp..............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
"You are correct but I don’t see us getting a seat at the table"
We are fighting a war of perceptions. Responsible firearm owners need to stop asking and waiting to be offered a seat at the table and take it upon ourselves to change people's perceptions beginning with our own communities.
Talk and coordinate with other firearm owners and start our own grass-root local efforts to make ourselves heard. Write letters, emails, and make calls to local newspapers, radio, and TV stations and school administrations and bug them until they have to invite us to be interviewed or speak about our opinions.
Then avoid emotional outbursts, arguments, accusations, and demands and instead lay out facts, ideas, and proposals that are "common sense" and explain how they could work to positively effect the firearms problems.
One big thing responsible firearm owners need to do is to separate ourselves from the gun waving "from my cold dead hands" shouting radicals that get all the attention and are portrayed as representing all firearm owners.
I've been using firearms for 65+ years and these people damn sure don't represent me. Frankly I consider them to be both an embarrassment and harmful to responsible firearm owners.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp...............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
Dr. Tramp,
I agree with your statement and ideas. However, if we keep referring to it as a “firearm problem” we already lost the conversation.
We should call it, perhaps, a violence problem.
"we already lost the conversation" Please explain this.
Personally I prefer honesty over sugar coating things with better sounding - politically correct labels. I'd much rather hear an unpleasant truth over a pleasant sounding lie.
We get plenty of pleasant sounding lies from politicians and media talking heads which I believe is part of why we as a nation and society are experiencing many of our current problems.
We are told and have been programmed to accept pleasant sounding lies to evade the unpleasant realities of our failing education system, lack of health care, lack of preparation for looming climate changes, incompetent and venal politicians, and more.
So how about we be honest about at least one thing okay? The US has problems involving firearms.
By honestly addressing these problems maybe we can solve, eliminate, or at least lessen them.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp................
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
We’ve discussed how the left controls speech and invents new words and phrases to manipulate the narrative.
global warming turns to climate change to climate emergency or crisis.
That sets the table. No room for compromise, something must be done immediately!
Same has happened to guns. Biden say’s, Who needs high capacity magazines? You’re a lousy shot and shouldn’t be allowed to hunt!
The sides are picked it’s fighting for the uninitiated and undecideds. Ceding them the terms is handicapping us from the start.
True but all the more reason to step away from those groups and individuals on both sides of the firearms debate/argument that are currently getting all the attention and start our own groups and create our own ideas for solutions.
Start by stop wasting time and energy attempting to assign blame by arguing and pointing fingers and instead concentrate on the actual problems and possible solutions.
It's not a Republican-Democrat-black-white-liberal-conservative-gay-straight-whatever-whoever problem. It's just a problem. A serious one that needs to be addressed and solved.
If doing the Time Warp Again with a Sweet Transvestite from Transsexual, Transylvania (any other Rocky Horror Picture Show fans? :)) helps to accomplish this then so be it.
I don't care who gets the blame or who gets the applause, I'm just concerned with solving the problems.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp.............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
We, the "People" are our real problems. We can blame other things like the media, politicians, gods, race, etc., etc., but ultimately it boils down to how "We" react and what "We" do about the problems that affect our lives.
It's become painfully obvious that "We" cannot rely on those of either party who swore oaths to "Support and defend the Constitution of the United States" to live up to these oaths.
Fortunately "We" have within the US constitution and the Amendments to it all the legal Rights, authorities, and tools to do this.
Now though "We" must confront and assume the burden of the most difficult part. "We", as citizens of the Republic and as a society, must relearn what these Rights, authorities, and tools are and how to use them before our understanding and ability to do so disappears entirely.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp...............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
Here's something I borrowed from a Libertarian website that seems applicable to the discussion. :)

"Dear Government.
After nearly 40 years of a “War On Drugs” you can’t keep drugs of the streets,
you can’t keep drugs out of schools, you can’t even keep drugs out of Federal prisons.
Yet, you want me to disarm myself and trust that YOU can keep guns from criminals?"


Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
"Will it get better over time?"
Most people improve and get more comfortable with their firearms and all the conditions of shooting, noise, recoil, etc. in proportion to the amount of time they practice. A few folks never get over being uncomfortable with or around firearms and eventually just quit shooting.
It sometimes helps to have a shooting partner to go to the range with. Especially if they're on or near the same level of experience. This gives you someone to discuss technique, results, and any concerns you might have with. Plus a little good-natured competition can be fun.
You also might want to double up on your ear protection. If you're using earmuffs try adding a set of foam ear plugs under them.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp..............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
988 Posts
Shooting to the left is common and usually means you need to work on your grip.

"I'm still not sure whether I like guns but I chose to buy one, and now I got to live with it"
Even if you eventually decide you don't like firearms and decide to give them up at least you now know something about them and those that own and use them.
Now when you're at some high falootin Bay Area social event and someone starts in with the usual evil guns and gun owners BS you can shock them with some actual facts. ;)
In the meantime you're working at becoming competent with yours instead just sticking in a drawer which is more than a lot of folks do. Congrats. :)
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp....................
 
1 - 20 of 78 Posts
Top