Lessons Learned from GZ; what would you do differently

Discussion in 'Conceal & Open Carry' started by cbmarine, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. cbmarine

    cbmarine Semper Fi

    What can we learn and apply from the Zimmerman-Martin case? Post favorite your ideas/methods; please substantiate your position by quoting your favorite author - Ayoob, Cooper, Grossman, etc - or by relating your experience.

    Rules of engagement: present your argument not just your negative comment, e.g., "that's dumb".

    Priming the pump:
    On neighbourhood watch, go in twos, wear a vest, announce your status (experience and observation)
    Observe "Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy+Preclusion" formulae (Ayoob): GZ let TM get in too close
    Maintain your Color Code (Jeff Cooper): GZ should have been in Orange
     
  2. Like the idea to have a lessons learned thread!

    Here's adding to OP thoughts:

    Since neighborhood watch is volunteer, sometimes it's just impossible to go out in pairs because of scheduling conflicts. But perhaps a person on call would help neighborhood watch groups keep one another's backs in the event something begins to go down. Call the person on call, then call 911 while waiting for on-call person to arrive. Something like this might have avoided the GZ/TM situation from escalating to the point of someone being dead.
     

  3. Augi

    Augi New Member

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    I think GZ let his guard down somewhat when he lost sight of TM and was returning to his vehicle. Assuming that the contact/surveilance was over may have been a contributing factor. Maybe should have been scanning the bushes with his flashlight a little more.
     
  4. fireman5

    fireman5 Junior Member Supporter

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    I agree with having 2 people if possiable. Also 1 having a camera to have proof of what went down to prevent issues.
     
  5. wrpNYFL

    wrpNYFL Premium Member Lifetime Supporting Member

    My lesson learned.... Always carry condition 1... If you are jumped, you won't have time to rack your slide...
     
  6. mgardner

    mgardner Member

    1. Be alert and learn to fight.
    2. If you are not good at hand to hand just observe and report.
    3. The cops will eventually come to help you but not soon enough.
     
  7. When screaming bloody murder, be sure to identify yourself so the lousy 911 recording can ID you.
     
  8. mopowerbmx

    mopowerbmx New Member

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    Identify yourself as community watch. When following someone stay in your car and listen to dispatch. If you get out of your car and then asked to return then go back the same way you came to avoid blatantly confronting suspect. If assaulted then fight back instead of automatically using both hands to go for your gun. It's hard to block punches when preoccupied.
     
  9. j102

    j102 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all the comments. Very good thread!

    To add to it, what if the "other" guy has a gun or a knife, and jump on you?
    It might be too late for you. Hand-to-hand techniques might not help you if you get caught by surprise.

    Lessons learned:
    - Carry condition one and stay in your car.
    - Stay alert, super alert, and keep your distance.
     
  10. j102

    j102 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to add that when you think the situation is getting out of hand, a gun in hand is better than in the holster.
    However, I don't know the legal implications of it.
     
  11. MrClean

    MrClean New Member

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    Brandishing is illegal.
     
  12. G-23

    G-23 Premium Member

    George Zimmerman was NOT on duty as a Neighbor Watch person. He was going to the store when the event unfolded.

    Lesson learned (one on one) even at the request of dispatchers request for more information, do not persue and wait for backup if no confrontation has occurred. Break off the encounter and seek good cover to continue comms.
     
  13. G-23

    G-23 Premium Member

    After Travon Martin (TM) circled Zimmerman in his truck, TM took off down a sidewalk that took him down beside and behind the buildings. Zimmerman allowed him to go.and did not follow at that time. Dispatch asked for TM's location and Zimmerman went to follow in hopes of seeing where TM had gone. On his way back TM (appeared from between the buildings) surprized and attacked Zimmerman. (My guess, - Zimmermans flashlight might have died there and he could have been forcused on that instead.)
     
  14. MissileCopUSAF

    MissileCopUSAF New Member

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    Travel in twos, tactical operators/police military teach that if one guy is good, two guys are better. For a number of reasons. Presence, strength of presence and witness credibility.
     
  15. G-23

    G-23 Premium Member

    Cameras are good but are you going to carry one everytime you go the store for milk? He was not on watch when this happened anyway.

    We discussed a video camera for our neighbor Watch Program. Decided it would draw too much attention to the people using it and can create a confrontation when a presence would not.

    Distance is your friend.
     
  16. G-23

    G-23 Premium Member

    He was on his way to the store but he could have used the ruse that he was on duty. He stayed in the truck until asked to provide a location of the suspect that had disappeared at that point. He was returning the same way he came and was attacked. Travon, :after words:, "sucker punched him" (my words) in the nose and he lost his balance and staggered. Travon took him to the ground at that point. I don't think he had time to react to the punch, after being caught off guard, to even think about the gun at that point.

    Lesson learned: Don't go into dark places with a faulty flashlight.
     
  17. G-23

    G-23 Premium Member

    Given the circumstances, there was never a reason for the gun to be presented until Zimmerman was in fear of great bodily harm or the lost of life.

    What if lesson learned: Should I go in search of a person I suspect has committed a crime and draw my weapon just in case he attacks me? This can go in so many wrong directions..... One idea, the other person sees your have a gun and is now in fear of their life....
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  18. G-23

    G-23 Premium Member

    Even when going to the store. Gosh I need a parnter but I don't have one, what do I do when I have to go for a walk at night after supper in my home neighborhood? I carry a gun. I walk varying routes to get my mileage in and carry a good flashlight.
     
  19. MissileCopUSAF

    MissileCopUSAF New Member

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    I know, right? I haven't been alone since I got married. Ever..... Even when she's not here, she's here.... Lol
     
  20. MissileCopUSAF

    MissileCopUSAF New Member

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    I was referring to neighborhood watch status, BTW.