Lake County Sheriff Deputies Shoot Wrong Person

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ROYALE-W-CHEESE, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

    479
    1
    http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies-shoot-kill-man-knocking-163819466.html

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/...e-county-police-shoot-and-kill-the-wrong-man-

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...ake-deputies-murder-shot-central-florida-news

    There's a bit of information missing... Why did the victim point his weapon at the deputies? I can understand bringing your gun to the door when getting some unexpected loud knocking at 1:30 in the middle of the night but was there not enough light to visibly see the deputies' uniforms? I'm assuming the guy would've looked through his peep hole or a side window or maybe opened his door only just partially to see what he could see.

    I'm trying to think what would I do if this happened to me. I imagine I wouldn't open the door until I made them identify themselves in one of those yelling conversations through the door. Given that they didn't have a warrant, I think (hope) a ram wouldn't come into play if i refused to open the door. I wouldn't be concerned about cooperating after I was convinced it would be safe to do so. Until then, they better prove themselves to me or bring their ram.
     
  2. dutchs

    dutchs Well-Known Member

    1,000
    195
    My wife and I had a knock down arguement over this last night! I am almost always on the side of the LEO's but in this case, the guys assumed the guy they were looking for was in the apartment directly in front of the motorcycle, then they surrounded his apartment at 2:00 in the morning , then they did not announce who they were and then shot the guy, in a bad neighborhood because he answered the door with his gun! Nobody saw anyone go in that apartment. This one was the fault of the police from the start IMHO.
     

  3. bhale187

    bhale187 New Member Supporter

    Bad news all around. We'll probably never really know exactly what happened, or how, or why.

    They found drugs and drug paraphernalia in the apartment, the dead guy had an arrest record, and the only apparent living witnesses (the deputies) say he pointed a gun at them.....it likely won't take too long for this to be case closed.
     
  4. Spanky29

    Spanky29 New Member

    I have a friend that works for that sheriffs department. I hope he wasn't involved. You would think in any situation an officer knocks, or bangs, on a door, they would announce "sheriffs department" or something to that nature. This is the second story in a week that negatively involved a lake county police department that I have heard.
     
  5. dutchs

    dutchs Well-Known Member

    1,000
    195
    That is all true and I do not condone the man doing these things but they would have had no idea he did had they done due diligence to find the real perp. That being said, Mind you , just going on what has been reported, I certainly was not there. The police are covering up a colossal mistake by saying " they do not have to announce themselves" That may be the law but I do not believe that relives them from the responsibility of at least being sure they are at the right place before shooting someone because they saw a gun. The guy they were after was a few doors down and they never found out until after they had killed the other guy, They never even looked. Sorry , I disagree with those actions. Like I said, I am only going on the story, but if it is a s reported, unfortunately they will be at fault and hide behind the law on this one.
     
  6. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

    479
    1
    However, I feel the only thing the officers have on their side in this case is that they were in uniform. Visual identification. The entire scenario could've been prevented at some point from the moment they started knocking to the moment just before the guy (allegedly) points his weapon at the deputies. Why did the victim open the door, would be my thought. Why would he point his gun at them? Missing information.

    From the LEO's POV, they are apparently allowed a tactical decision as to whether they verbally identify themselves. In that case, what would they do if I were on the other side of that door in that scenario and refused to open the door until they showed me some ID or at minimum their badges? (In actuality, I'd make a phone call to verify through dispatch if any of their guys are at my door so that NO ONE gets shot.) Would they blast their way in? If I cracked the door a little to see what I could see, would they storm? What if it wasn't a good shoot but, because I'd be dead, they could say anything about my pointing my weapon.

    Stretching this scenario a bit... What if you walked around a corner and saw someone shooting someone else near a crowd? Assuming you're CC, would you draw and fire at the shooter immediately only to risk finding out later that he was a plain-clothes detective taking down a perp, or would you hesitate to gather more information but in doing so, risk the shooter shooting another person (if the shooter were indeed a bad guy)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  7. dutchs

    dutchs Well-Known Member

    1,000
    195
    I really do understand all the scenarios. I do believe in this Case DUE Diligence was not used. They saw a Motorcycle in a parking lot that looked like the one described so they just went to the apartment directly in front of it?? Did no one ask, Hey, what if that isn't him? Hey, would a criminal. even as stupid as they can be, really park his scoot directly in front of where he is hiding. I do believe , in my mind, these very simple questions were not asked in this case.
     
  8. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

    13,460
    6
    Chances are good that the officers will not have to face any consequences.

    One guy is dead, the wrong guy, and already we are hearing about how much of a scumbag he was, drugs on scene, arrest record, pointing a gun at what he would have percieved as intruders, etc. etc.

    It is so sad that such a mistake could happen, but mistakes DO happen, and the ones in error should be held accountable. I will bet that they will not.

    Sadly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  9. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

    13,460
    6
    Oh, and I HAVE answered my door in the middle of the night with a gun in my hand when it turned out to be local police....even with video surveillance cameras, at night they go black & white, and at 1 or 2 in the morning your focus is not on a video screen.

    In all instances, though, it turned out well.
     
  10. bhale187

    bhale187 New Member Supporter

    I don't see any problem with knocking on doors of apartments near where an attempted murder suspect parked a vehicle. It's canvassing a neighborhood, and its just plain good ole fashion effective police work.

    Right, wrong, or indifferent; I also know its common practice to NOT announce you are the police unless you are going to immediately follow the announcement with knocking down the door for a warrant. People in bad neighborhoods don't answer the door when they know its the police; they know the police will either go away or they are coming in anyway because they have a warrant.

    In today's paranoid (and rightfully so) world things like this get out of hand fast, and this is apparently just another example of that.
     
  11. GastonGlock

    GastonGlock New Member

    91
    0
    Another poorly executed operation. But because the victim is dead it's the cops word vs a silenced dead man.
     
  12. dutchs

    dutchs Well-Known Member

    1,000
    195
    I as well have no problem with canvasing a neighborhood for a criminal, especially one such as this scumbag really was. It does appear though that it was not the case that they canvased the neighborhood, they went directly, wrongly, to an apartment under an assumption because the motorcycle was parked in front of it. From the reporting here, they had NO one say they saw anyone go in that apartment and they did not check any other apartments before this guy got shot. I really am on the side of LEO's, really! I do think in this case they made assumptions that cost a man his life, being a druggy does not make that acceptable.
     
  13. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

    479
    1
    That's certainly the controversy of "No Knock" warrants. But if there's a warrant, there's an address, no? "Joe, is that a 1 or a 7? Ah hell, we'll figure it out later." I'm thinking this case is not a No Knock scenario. They didn't bust in. They knocked then waited for the victim to open, according to the articles. In a No Knock warrant, as I understand it, they don't have to knock but upon entry they need to announce/identify themselves. Else, in darkness, they are simply quiet intruders and (worse) unidentified armed silhouettes. And you know what that would mean to an armed civilian awakened in the middle of the night.

    How did you handle it? I assume there was communication through the door?

    And you're right: Unfortunately for Andrew Lee Scott, his unrelated criminal background will assuage the public outcry, if any.
     
  14. bhale187

    bhale187 New Member Supporter

    It was the first apartment near the bike, logically that's the place most likely to have seen or heard where the bike's rider went after he got off the bike. They didn't check any other apartments because the first one they checked they smoked a guy at the door. I can't believe that they were assuming the bad guy was in the first apartment they saw in the area, it makes more sense that this was one of many apartment doors they planned to knock on.

    I'm not disputing the fact that this smells very bad, and a man is dead for likely no good reason. I'm just saying knocking on that door was not the problem.
     
  15. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

    479
    1
    That's precisely my point as well. Because the deceased had a bad rep, we're supposed to think, "Oh well" and be distracted from the mistake?
     
  16. dutchs

    dutchs Well-Known Member

    1,000
    195
    And once again, I do agree in theory with the fact that it may have just been the first logical door to go to. Also, it would not be the first time the press is not telling the whole story correctly. That being said, knowing what I do right now, this was indeed incorrectly executed and a guy died over it. I really hope it does not turn out that way but at this point it looks like it smells. I only hope as Royale said it doesn't get swept under the rug because the dead guy was supposedly a not so great guy anyway.
     
  17. bhale187

    bhale187 New Member Supporter

    My point was you don't announce you are cops unless you DO have a warrant.

    Most the time you lie when someone says 'who is it' through the door. You answer 'jermaine or tyrell or deangelo' whatever, but you don't say 'its the police' unless you have a warrant or you don't want them to answer the doo.
     
  18. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

    479
    1
    Okay, I see what you're saying now. So what happens in the case where someone refuses to open the door? No warrant and no further probable cause means no entry... or does it. (Funny visual: If the cops lie through the door about being "Tyrell" then couldn't a bad guy also lie about being "not here?" Ha!)

    Back to the citizen's POV, if "Jermaine" (ie, anyone other than "Police" or "It's your mother, stupid, now open the door!") came knocking on my door at 1:30am, I'd have to make a phone call first before I ever thought about opening it. My concern is the safest way to handle this scenario when you don't know if the door-knocker is a good guy lying or a bad guy lying.
     
  19. GastonGlock

    GastonGlock New Member

    91
    0
    There has to be SOME form of identification, I find it hard to believe that officers knocking on someones door, especially if it's late at night, wouldn't identify themselves. And the officers have to take into consideration that he could've been in any of those apartments, not necessarily the first one they knocked on. If those cops didn't stop to consider this and had a "he must be in here!" approach, then they probably shouldn't be doing what they're doing. You have to be smarter than that or mistakes happen and the wrong people can get hurt.
     
  20. bhale187

    bhale187 New Member Supporter

    I've been a peace officer for 13 years, and I can tell you without a doubt that the vast majority of the time in a bad neighborhood police don't identify themselves until someone actually opens the door. The thing is people either just don't like talking to the police or do they like to be seen talking to the police in rough neighborhoods.

    If you are in a nice neighborhood its an entirely different story.