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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My question is what is the practical/efficient/realistic distance that one should expect from using a rifle with bare sights? Or in other words around what distance should one resort to scopes instead of sights.

For the sake of argument, let's say we're talking an AR style rifle chambered in 223/5.56 against 12"x12" stationary paper targets...

Thanks!

Dan
 

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Load Bearing Wall
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200 Meters if you snap in.
 

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Don't Call Me Sir!!! I Work For A Living
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Not sure about your specific rifle but I know my Colt M4. W/ a 14" barrel and a 1:7 rifling shooting M855 you get the following:

Area Target: 600m
Point Target: 500m
Max: 3600m
 

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Load Bearing Wall
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This is a vid showing the "Dog" target, 24", shooters firing from 300 yards. The 12" bull was a 200 yard target, not too hard to hit on slow fire.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYWi9PXJHCU[/ame]
 

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Load Bearing Wall
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Not sure about your specific rifle but I know my Colt M4. W/ a 14" barrel and a 1:7 rifling shooting M855 you get the following:

Area Target: 600m
Point Target: 500m
Max: 3600m
A Marine Corps Recruiter Will Be With You Momentarily.
 

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Not sure about your specific rifle but I know my Colt M4. W/ a 14" barrel and a 1:7 rifling shooting M855 you get the following:

Area Target: 600m
Point Target: 500m
Max: 3600m
Yeah, um....I can't even see a target at 500m and I have 20/20 vision.
 

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Don't Call Me Sir!!! I Work For A Living
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Argyle_Armoring said:
Yeah, um....I can't even see a target at 500m and I have 20/20 vision.
Well that's what the AF tells me. My unit is non-deployable so odds that I'll ever shoot anyone with my M4 is VERY slim. Much less at those ranges.
 

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Regardless of what product literature might say on this, it's really a matter of the shooter as an individual. If you can hit a target at 400 yards with iron sights, then go with it. If you can hit at 400 yards with a scope, then use it. Whatever works for you is right for you :)
 

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Load Bearing Wall
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What the Air Force is telling you is basically true, and the information I have from the Marine Corps in my old guidebook is similar, as well it should be. The rifle we were using in 1973 was the M16-A1, 5.56 .223 Ball ammunition with a 55 grain FMJ bullet. However, our definition of a point target was either a small unit, or perhaps a lead vehicle in column, like a 6x6. An area target was considered to be a building, or structure, or larger. Our maximum effective range was determined to be appx 460 meters, beyond that the 55 grain bullets would start to destabilize, tumble, & keyhole.

But the original question Bocadan proposed inquires as to what distance could you consistently hit a 12" X 12" target, appx the same area as a human chest. After training & snapping in for a couple of weeks, we could hit a 12" bull at 200 yards most of the time, you might expect to hit the same 12" bull about half of the time at 300 yards, if your were at the top of your game.

And I probably could still hit a large truck, or Point Target, at 500 yards, but thats not what Bocadan was really asking.

i'd really like to shoot one of the new M-4's, I bet they are a sweet weapon.

Stay safe Air Force, glad you got us covered.
 

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sgtcowboyusmc said:
God I miss that! OOHRAH! SHOOTERS YOU MAY COMMENCE FIRING ONCE YOUR DOG TARGETS APPEAR!;)
Brings back some memories. I too miss it now that I think about it. Semper Fi
 

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Brings back some memories. I too miss it now that I think about it. Semper Fi
I'm writing mostly from memory, did I leave anything out? Or have things changed much for rifle qual?

Old & Fuzzy some Days.
 

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SeventiesWreckers said:
I'm writing mostly from memory, did I leave anything out? Or have things changed much for rifle qual?

Old & Fuzzy some Days.
Well ... For army there's no more foxhole. It's prone supported and unsupported, then kneeling. The way we train now is pretty different as well. When I was going through one course we actually used steel targets from 175.
 

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SeventiesWreckers said:
I'm writing mostly from memory, did I leave anything out? Or have things changed much for rifle qual?

Old & Fuzzy some Days.
From what I remember you are right on. Firing line ready on the right-Ready. Firing line ready on the left-Ready. Shooters you may commence...

Good times!
 

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Good enough, Thanks Marine, I kept my shooters log (green book) for quite a few years, but it seems to have gone missing. I just wanted to answer Bocadan's question, and I can't recall shooting any range farther than 300 yds.

Semper Fi
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks all for the input.

While at the range the other day for the second time with my SKS, the scope I put on the receiver cover became wobbly. It seemed like time for a "loctite" treatment, which I didn't have any with me, nor the patience to wait for it to cure right there. Instead I resorted to the sights for the first time ever at 100 yards and I was surprised to see I was easily maintaining a 6-8" groups from the bench. Now I realize 8" groups are nothing to be proud of, but for someone who is a lousy shot even with scopes, (been shooting rifles just for a few months now) that was very interesting to see. Even though SKSes are not the most accurate rifles that are out there, mine is still more accurate than myself :)

This is when I decided to "get used to" regular sights a bit more, before starting to resort to scopes etc. I'm in the process building my first AR, and even though I already have a scope purchased for it, I won't be using the scope at all for the first few months - just to get more familiar with the sights.

Hence my question...

Thanks all once again...
 

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The Marine Corps rifle qual these days is like this. You shoot a slow fire, 5 rounds each in sitting, kneeling, and standing positions. Then you shoot a 10 round rapid fire in the sitting. Then you move on to 300 yard slow fire, firing 5 rounds sitting and a 10 round rapid fire from the prone position. Then you move back to the 500 yard line and fire a 10 round slow fire from the prone position. Granted, now all shooters are authorized to shoot with an acog on either their M16A4, or M4. It is very possible to hit a target at 500 yards with optics consistently. Not to brag, but I scored 245 out of a possible 250 points, hitting all 10 rounds from the 500 in the black. I dropped 2 in the 300 yard rapid. :(
 

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Bocadan said:
Thanks all for the input.

While at the range the other day for the second time with my SKS, the scope I put on the receiver cover became wobbly. It seemed like time for a "loctite" treatment, which I didn't have any with me, nor the patience to wait for it to cure right there. Instead I resorted to the sights for the first time ever at 100 yards and I was surprised to see I was easily maintaining a 6-8" groups from the bench. Now I realize 8" groups are nothing to be proud of, but for someone who is a lousy shot even with scopes, (been shooting rifles just for a few months now) that was very interesting to see. Even though SKSes are not the most accurate rifles that are out there, mine is still more accurate than myself :)

This is when I decided to "get used to" regular sights a bit more, before starting to resort to scopes etc. I'm in the process building my first AR, and even though I already have a scope purchased for it, I won't be using the scope at all for the first few months - just to get more familiar with the sights.

Hence my question...

Thanks all once again...
Learning to shoot with iron sights is a lot harder than with optics. As you plan, stick to the irons for a while until you get the fundamentals down and then once you get an optic zeroed, hitting black will come a lot easier. The SKS is a good rifle and with time, you should be able to hit the 12" targets at about 200 yards consistently with irons. A 6-8" group is great for a "beginner".
 
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