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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Use Hornady critical defense in all of my guns. I've heard great things about Federal hydra shock as well, is one better than the other? Is there a good self defense round that I'm leaving out, or are those pretty much the top 2 to consider?
 

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I have 135 gr Hydra Shok jhp low recoil 9mm i havent shot them but i can tell you this i DO NOT WANT TO BE SHOT BY THEM lol
 

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Do a Google search on the Hydra Shoks. They are well known for sub-par performance in every caliber except .45ACP. I carried them for years, but after reading up on them, I immediately changed.

Hornady Critical Defense is good. They just came out with Critical Duty which has a bit more recoil because it has a bit more punch. It's designed for law enforcement, but not restricted, and it was designed to pass the FBI's barrier tests. It's good against glass, sheet metal, plywood/wall board, and clothing while staying together, staying on path and still providing ~15" of penetration in a person. Generally, for civilian self/home defense purposes, Critical Defense is sufficient.

Speer Gold Dots are also excellent. I've read good things about Winchester Ranger and Remington Golden Sabre as well.

For the moment, I'm using Hornady XTP in most of my guns, but I'm doing some research to see if I want to stay with it or not.
 

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I've got hornady critical defense because its good for shooting threw clothing. I don't want to shoot threw the wall with a lot of punch should it happen, but I do want to shoot threw heavy clothing.

If you want to shoot through car doors and windshields get Winchester PDX1 Bonded Elite.

If you do a youtube search you can pretty much find what you want to know about most ammo.
 

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Glaser Safety Slugs are my preferred defensive cartridge. I also like Winchester Silvertips.
 

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If you're not LEO, I'd leave those "penetration" rounds alone. I wouldn't even carry those OD. It's almost universal that once you pull the trigger you're responsible for whatever your bullet hits. Even if you whack the bad guy, are you going to feel good about taking out granny or some kids innocent daddy? You're going to feel even worse when you go to prison for killing the bad guy and hitting an innocent.

Ever hear the expression, "the bullets started flying". It just ain't a saying. When you get into a, "Oh, s**t!" situation and your pucker factor goes up to about a 10, your hearts going to start shifting into high gear, you're probably going to go into tunnel vision and your hearing is probably going to get low and fuzzy.

Why do you think trained LEO's can fire 42x at guy and hit him 4x? Because sometimes the bad guys shoot first/back or at least appear to look like they're going to shoot /first back.

How I see it; Critical Defense, good. Critical Duty (OD), bad.
 

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If you're not LEO, I'd leave those "penetration" rounds alone. I wouldn't even carry those OD. It's almost universal that once you pull the trigger you're responsible for whatever your bullet hits. Even if you whack the bad guy, are you going to feel good about taking out granny or some kids innocent daddy? You're going to feel even worse when you go to prison for killing the bad guy and hitting an innocent.

Ever hear the expression, "the bullets started flying". It just ain't a saying. When you get into a. "Oh, s**t!" situation and your pucker factor goes up to about a 10, your hearts going to start shifting into high gear, you're probably going to go into tunnel vision and your hearing is probably going to get low and fuzzy.

Why do you think trained LEO's can fire 42x at guy and hit him 4x? Because sometimes the bad guys shoot first/back or at least appear to look like they're going to shoot /firstback.

How I see it; Critical Defense, good. Critical Duty (OD), bad.
Its why I carry Critical Defense. My son in law can't carry them on duty because of the fact they are not an over bearing round. He carry's Winchester PDX1 Bonded Elete. Now he sees Hornady has the Critical Duty he's looking that way too.
 

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If you're not LEO, I'd leave those "penetration" rounds alone. I wouldn't even carry those OD. It's almost universal that once you pull the trigger you're responsible for whatever your bullet hits. Even if you whack the bad guy, are you going to feel good about taking out granny or some kids innocent daddy? You're going to feel even worse when you go to prison for killing the bad guy and hitting an innocent.

Ever hear the expression, "the bullets started flying". It just ain't a saying. When you get into a. "Oh, s**t!" situation and your pucker factor goes up to about a 10, your hearts going to start shifting into high gear, you're probably going to go into tunnel vision and your hearing is probably going to get low and fuzzy.

Why do you think trained LEO's can fire 42x at guy and hit him 4x? Because sometimes the bad guys shoot first/back or at least appear to look like they're going to shoot /firstback.

How I see it; Critical Defense, good. Critical Duty (OD), bad.
Last I checked I was under the impression that hollow point ammunition was designed to prevent "through and through" wounds when fired into flesh. FMJ doesn't expand at all and only slows minimally when entering the body, short of hitting bone or another hard material. :confused:
 

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If you're not LEO, I'd leave those "penetration" rounds alone.

How I see it; Critical Defense, good. Critical Duty (OD), bad.
You need rounds that penetrate at least 12" of you might as well be throwing spit balls.

I agree Critical Defense is probably sufficient for most SD needs. Critical Duty was designed specifically for law enforcement and after seeing the results, would be my first choice for duty ammo. It's the first ammo I've seen that might get me to consider buying a 9mm.
 

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Last I checked I was under the impression that hollow point ammunition was designed to prevent "through and through" wounds when fired into flesh. FMJ doesn't expand at all and only slows minimally when entering the body, short of hitting bone or another hard material. :confused:
True. But in a court of law, "perception is reality". The first thing that prosecutor or liability lawyer is going to bring out is the fact the box says Critical Duty on it. And that Hornaday also manufactures Critical Defense ammo. And don't think he/she won't have pictures of both boxes to wave at the jury, either.

Also, keep in mind, in a criminal case, all 12 jurors have to vote to convict. In most states, in civil court, only a majority have to vote to take your whole life's savings and future income. And most of those courts have less than 12 jurors.

Pain goes away, but money going away hurts forever.
 

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True. But in a court of law, "perception is reality". The first thing that prosecutor or liability lawyer is going to bring out is the fact the box says Critical Duty on it. And that Hornaday also manufactures Critical Defense ammo. And don't think he/she won't have pictures of both boxes to wave at the jury, either.

Also, keep in mind, in a criminal case, all 12 jurors have to vote to convict. In most states, in civil court, only a majority have to vote to take your whole life's savings and future income. And most of those courts have less than 12 jurors.

Pain goes away, but money going away hurts forever.
Fair enough, but let me pose this question to you. Do you qualify with Critical Defense at the range? Because following that logic, it'd be just as easy to say you weren't proficient with it because you don't spend as much time with it.

All of this is for the sake of conversation; I choose to carry 124 Gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in my weapon... we both know part of the training is shoot / no shoot and the penalties are just as grave whether on duty or not; This is why we have lawyers on both sides of the court.

Bottom line? Hopefully neither of us have to break leather anytime soon. :cool:
 

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True. But in a court of law, "perception is reality". The first thing that prosecutor or liability lawyer is going to bring out is the fact the box says Critical Duty on it. And that Hornaday also manufactures Critical Defense ammo. And don't think he/she won't have pictures of both boxes to wave at the jury, either.

Also, keep in mind, in a criminal case, all 12 jurors have to vote to convict. In most states, in civil court, only a majority have to vote to take your whole life's savings and future income. And most of those courts have less than 12 jurors.

Pain goes away, but money going away hurts forever.
Not sure where your a LEO, I'm been one myself for 15+yrs. and have been assigned to the prosecutors office for the last 8yrs. what you said above has never once in my eight yrs happened or has even come close to happening. In fact I work with 30+yr prosecutors that have never once done this nor heard of it being done. Maybe living in a major city with high crime rates we don't have the luxury of delving into those minute details, not that any judge would let it in anyway (undue prejudicial influence for the jury, at least in my circuit). Have you ever actually seen this happen yourself?

And in case anyone is wondering, in my duty weapon (G17) I have Federal HST's 147gr
in my off duty weapon (G19) Federal HST's 147gr
in my nightstand gun (G20) Hornady Critical Defense 200gr (couldn't find Federal HST's in 10mm....)
 

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I like Federal, I have never shot Hornady out of my Glocks or any other of my handguns; I did shoot a two boxes of Hornady 6.8 110gr. BTHP and V-max out of my PSD, no problems or complaints. Usually use SSA or Remington.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Start your own thread about what happens in court after you shoot someone. You can talk about all those details in that thread. This is the second time I've seen a thread be transformed into a new topic (by the same person). Annoying
 

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fls348... I agree with you completely!!! I've been a LEO for 10+ years myself and never seen this... Shoot factory ammo and you should be good to go!!! As for federal or hornady.... We shoot Federal Hidro Shocks... Best we've found!!!
 

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fls348... I agree with you completely!!! I've been a LEO for 10+ years myself and never seen this... Shoot factory ammo and you should be good to go!!! As for federal or hornady.... We shoot Federal Hidro Shocks... Best we've found!!!
I agree, I wasn't trying to be an ass or anything, but the reality of it is prosecutors don't have time to look into that stuff and realistically civil atty.'s aren't really that smart.....unless they hire consultants, which cuts into their bottom line. If you use any part that is manufactured for a specific weapon and don't alter that product it will never nor can ever happen.

I also agree any factory made ammo regardless of what "name" it has on the box is still good solid ammo. If there were something illegal about it rest assured it wouldn't still be on the market.

We used to use Federal Hydra-Shok, then we went to Winchester Ranger, and now we're using the Federal HST. I'm reasonably sure our Dept. goes with what ever they can get the best deal on...
 

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Fair enough, but let me pose this question to you. Do you qualify with Critical Defense at the range? Because following that logic, it'd be just as easy to say you weren't proficient with it because you don't spend as much time with it.

All of this is for the sake of conversation; I choose to carry 124 Gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in my weapon... we both know part of the training is shoot / no shoot and the penalties are just as grave whether on duty or not; This is why we have lawyers on both sides of the court.

Bottom line? Hopefully neither of us have to break leather anytime soon. :cool:
"Sake of conversation" my foot. You just brought up a good point. On our dept. range we do requals with FMJ with the dept. guns. On duty, though, we're issued JHP. The JHP may also be from different manufacturers. (This goes back to a few years ago when .40 cal got in tight supply and even LE departments were having trouble getting enough supplies.) I've even been issued trays with different makers within the 36 I'm given for that night. I mentioned that one night at the arsenal window and was told, "They're all like that".

As for our OD requals, as long as your weapon is DAO, restricted to a 15 rd. magazine and an approved manufacturer, you can pretty much "run what you brung". I don't remember anyone's ammo actually being inspected. Most of us run Winchester white box FMJ with our personal OD weapons.

Our dept. stopped supplying the ammo for OD requals 20 years ago when they stopped using/authorizing reloads. Being a member in the largest dept. in NJ, you can imagine the size of our range classes. We don't even do a practice run. It's class, lunch, outside and shoot. If you don't requal on the first run, then you get a reshoot. Second fail is a reschedule. Then those that have OD guns qual/requal. OD carry is not mandated by my dept. And since our dept has become insanely anal about OT, if you bring 2 OD's, you better have your mags preloaded and ready to go on a 2nd weapon.

Use of force, shoot/ don't shoot (Garner vs. Tennessee, et al) is covered in classroom. Practical shoot/don't shoot is only done with SOG.

Thanks for bringing up a good subject. It opens up good questions of liability down the road. I'll make sure to send this matter along.

Your input on this forum may just save an officer from not only losing his livelihood but, his/her liberty as well.

Thank you.
 

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Not sure where your a LEO, I'm been one myself for 15+yrs. and have been assigned to the prosecutors office for the last 8yrs. what you said above has never once in my eight yrs happened or has even come close to happening. In fact I work with 30+yr prosecutors that have never once done this nor heard of it being done. Maybe living in a major city with high crime rates we don't have the luxury of delving into those minute details, not that any judge would let it in anyway (undue prejudicial influence for the jury, at least in my circuit). Have you ever actually seen this happen yourself?

And in case anyone is wondering, in my duty weapon (G17) I have Federal HST's 147gr
in my off duty weapon (G19) Federal HST's 147gr
in my nightstand gun (G20) Hornady Critical Defense 200gr (couldn't find Federal HST's in 10mm....)
I'm not going to disagree with you on how things are done in Mo. But NJ is a very intense state when it comes to stern gun laws, liability and prosecution. It is the home of the infamous Sen. Lautenberg. Yes, I am a 24 year LEO and one of my best friends is a retired 30 year LEO who retired as head of homicide for the Union Cty. prosecutors office. The NJSP also has one of the most modern and extensive crime labs this side of the federal government.

All that being stated, a LEO involved in a "good shoot" probably won't receive the scrutiny that a civilian would receive. But in NJ, they have the means and the resources to be quite thorough in the forensics.

As for evidence that could be prejudicial to the jury; if presented during the interrogatories and ruled admissible by the judge, it will be presented in court.

Take a look at the Essex Cty. crime lab site (which Newark, NJ is in). http://www.essexsheriff.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=78&Itemid=51 If they feel they need further aid in a case, they, as in all NJ counties, are directly connected to the NJSP crime lab through the IBIS system. On top of that, NJ is not that large of a state. All counties can transfer physical evidence for investigation within 2 hours. And the NJSP lab can have a mobile unit anywhere in the state in less than that. Not too much evidence gets overlooked in NJ.
 

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I'm not a law officer but I have two family members who are. They're always telling me that what if factor. One did the 3.5 trigger mod, the other is like me don't mess with what's perfect already. Just saying I love my trigger pull and the what if factor is all, what if.
Yeah. I just don't trust lawyers. Maybe that's from living in NJ where there's more lawyers than dogs, and dogs are more trustworthy.

Shakespeare said it best over 300 years ago in "Henry VI" (Act IV, Scene II)...“The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers”.:)
 
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