I have 135 gr Hydra Shok jhp low recoil 9mm i havent shot them but i can tell you this i DO NOT WANT TO BE SHOT BY THEM lol
Its why I carry Critical Defense. My son in law can't carry them on duty because of the fact they are not an over bearing round. He carry's Winchester PDX1 Bonded Elete. Now he sees Hornady has the Critical Duty he's looking that way too.If you're not LEO, I'd leave those "penetration" rounds alone. I wouldn't even carry those OD. It's almost universal that once you pull the trigger you're responsible for whatever your bullet hits. Even if you whack the bad guy, are you going to feel good about taking out granny or some kids innocent daddy? You're going to feel even worse when you go to prison for killing the bad guy and hitting an innocent.
Ever hear the expression, "the bullets started flying". It just ain't a saying. When you get into a. "Oh, s**t!" situation and your pucker factor goes up to about a 10, your hearts going to start shifting into high gear, you're probably going to go into tunnel vision and your hearing is probably going to get low and fuzzy.
Why do you think trained LEO's can fire 42x at guy and hit him 4x? Because sometimes the bad guys shoot first/back or at least appear to look like they're going to shoot /firstback.
How I see it; Critical Defense, good. Critical Duty (OD), bad.
Last I checked I was under the impression that hollow point ammunition was designed to prevent "through and through" wounds when fired into flesh. FMJ doesn't expand at all and only slows minimally when entering the body, short of hitting bone or another hard material.If you're not LEO, I'd leave those "penetration" rounds alone. I wouldn't even carry those OD. It's almost universal that once you pull the trigger you're responsible for whatever your bullet hits. Even if you whack the bad guy, are you going to feel good about taking out granny or some kids innocent daddy? You're going to feel even worse when you go to prison for killing the bad guy and hitting an innocent.
Ever hear the expression, "the bullets started flying". It just ain't a saying. When you get into a. "Oh, s**t!" situation and your pucker factor goes up to about a 10, your hearts going to start shifting into high gear, you're probably going to go into tunnel vision and your hearing is probably going to get low and fuzzy.
Why do you think trained LEO's can fire 42x at guy and hit him 4x? Because sometimes the bad guys shoot first/back or at least appear to look like they're going to shoot /firstback.
How I see it; Critical Defense, good. Critical Duty (OD), bad.
You need rounds that penetrate at least 12" of you might as well be throwing spit balls.If you're not LEO, I'd leave those "penetration" rounds alone.
How I see it; Critical Defense, good. Critical Duty (OD), bad.
True. But in a court of law, "perception is reality". The first thing that prosecutor or liability lawyer is going to bring out is the fact the box says Critical Duty on it. And that Hornaday also manufactures Critical Defense ammo. And don't think he/she won't have pictures of both boxes to wave at the jury, either.Last I checked I was under the impression that hollow point ammunition was designed to prevent "through and through" wounds when fired into flesh. FMJ doesn't expand at all and only slows minimally when entering the body, short of hitting bone or another hard material.![]()
Fair enough, but let me pose this question to you. Do you qualify with Critical Defense at the range? Because following that logic, it'd be just as easy to say you weren't proficient with it because you don't spend as much time with it.True. But in a court of law, "perception is reality". The first thing that prosecutor or liability lawyer is going to bring out is the fact the box says Critical Duty on it. And that Hornaday also manufactures Critical Defense ammo. And don't think he/she won't have pictures of both boxes to wave at the jury, either.
Also, keep in mind, in a criminal case, all 12 jurors have to vote to convict. In most states, in civil court, only a majority have to vote to take your whole life's savings and future income. And most of those courts have less than 12 jurors.
Pain goes away, but money going away hurts forever.
Not sure where your a LEO, I'm been one myself for 15+yrs. and have been assigned to the prosecutors office for the last 8yrs. what you said above has never once in my eight yrs happened or has even come close to happening. In fact I work with 30+yr prosecutors that have never once done this nor heard of it being done. Maybe living in a major city with high crime rates we don't have the luxury of delving into those minute details, not that any judge would let it in anyway (undue prejudicial influence for the jury, at least in my circuit). Have you ever actually seen this happen yourself?True. But in a court of law, "perception is reality". The first thing that prosecutor or liability lawyer is going to bring out is the fact the box says Critical Duty on it. And that Hornaday also manufactures Critical Defense ammo. And don't think he/she won't have pictures of both boxes to wave at the jury, either.
Also, keep in mind, in a criminal case, all 12 jurors have to vote to convict. In most states, in civil court, only a majority have to vote to take your whole life's savings and future income. And most of those courts have less than 12 jurors.
Pain goes away, but money going away hurts forever.
I agree, I wasn't trying to be an ass or anything, but the reality of it is prosecutors don't have time to look into that stuff and realistically civil atty.'s aren't really that smart.....unless they hire consultants, which cuts into their bottom line. If you use any part that is manufactured for a specific weapon and don't alter that product it will never nor can ever happen.fls348... I agree with you completely!!! I've been a LEO for 10+ years myself and never seen this... Shoot factory ammo and you should be good to go!!! As for federal or hornady.... We shoot Federal Hidro Shocks... Best we've found!!!
"Sake of conversation" my foot. You just brought up a good point. On our dept. range we do requals with FMJ with the dept. guns. On duty, though, we're issued JHP. The JHP may also be from different manufacturers. (This goes back to a few years ago when .40 cal got in tight supply and even LE departments were having trouble getting enough supplies.) I've even been issued trays with different makers within the 36 I'm given for that night. I mentioned that one night at the arsenal window and was told, "They're all like that".Fair enough, but let me pose this question to you. Do you qualify with Critical Defense at the range? Because following that logic, it'd be just as easy to say you weren't proficient with it because you don't spend as much time with it.
All of this is for the sake of conversation; I choose to carry 124 Gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in my weapon... we both know part of the training is shoot / no shoot and the penalties are just as grave whether on duty or not; This is why we have lawyers on both sides of the court.
Bottom line? Hopefully neither of us have to break leather anytime soon.![]()
I'm not going to disagree with you on how things are done in Mo. But NJ is a very intense state when it comes to stern gun laws, liability and prosecution. It is the home of the infamous Sen. Lautenberg. Yes, I am a 24 year LEO and one of my best friends is a retired 30 year LEO who retired as head of homicide for the Union Cty. prosecutors office. The NJSP also has one of the most modern and extensive crime labs this side of the federal government.Not sure where your a LEO, I'm been one myself for 15+yrs. and have been assigned to the prosecutors office for the last 8yrs. what you said above has never once in my eight yrs happened or has even come close to happening. In fact I work with 30+yr prosecutors that have never once done this nor heard of it being done. Maybe living in a major city with high crime rates we don't have the luxury of delving into those minute details, not that any judge would let it in anyway (undue prejudicial influence for the jury, at least in my circuit). Have you ever actually seen this happen yourself?
And in case anyone is wondering, in my duty weapon (G17) I have Federal HST's 147gr
in my off duty weapon (G19) Federal HST's 147gr
in my nightstand gun (G20) Hornady Critical Defense 200gr (couldn't find Federal HST's in 10mm....)
Yeah. I just don't trust lawyers. Maybe that's from living in NJ where there's more lawyers than dogs, and dogs are more trustworthy.I'm not a law officer but I have two family members who are. They're always telling me that what if factor. One did the 3.5 trigger mod, the other is like me don't mess with what's perfect already. Just saying I love my trigger pull and the what if factor is all, what if.