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Do you believe in Lethal Force to Protect your Homestead

  • Yes

    Votes: 48 100.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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· Banned
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Why not empty the mag and reload as you would on a cat in the outdoors
Since there was more than one perp I would have first double tapped the one at the door and then exited the car and progressed through the targets as they became available until (A) they were all down or had run off (B) I were dead or hit too bad to keep going (C) the slide locked back.
Then if I were still alive and functioning and all the perps were down or gone I would have reloaded and double tapped any downed perp that still appeared threatening, as in still breathing, in the head.
Of course with today's laws using that last step on human predators would likely get you in trouble as an attorney could easily construe it as using unnecessary force after the initial threat had been neutralized.
Uncivilized behavior you know. Tsk tsk....... :cool:
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp.................
 

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Discussion Starter · #208 ·
F’d around and found out!
We should break it down using the elements of self defense.
1) Innocence: Was the shooter innocent or did he provoke the bad guy. Based on the video, I would say the shooter was innocent.
2) Imminence: Was the threat to life imminent. Based on the video, I would say a bad guy threatening patrons with a gun poses an imminent threat to life.
3) Proportionality: This was is a no brainer, they both had guns. If the shooter shot the bad guy and he didn't have a gun, that might be different.
4) Avoidance: Could the shooter have avoided the conflict. Based on the video, I would say no.
Texas
A person is not required to retreat before using force if he has a right to be present at that location, has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used; a factfinder may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat for purposes of determining whether he reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary.
5) Reasonableness: If any of 1-4 above were no, then the shooter was not reasonable. There are 2 additional steps to reasonableness.
a) Objective Reasonableness: Did the shooter act in a prudent manner or as a prudent person would have acted.
Texas
A "reasonable belief" is one that would be held by an ordinary and prudent person, not by a paranoid psychotic. Appellant's repeated claim that "his paranoid ideations and active psychosis" raise a "reasonable belief" that his actions were justified is supported neither by law nor common sense.
b) Subjective Reasonableness: Your actions are presumed reasonable until they are proven unreasonable. Did the shooter have a "Good Faith" belief that his actions were reasonable.
 

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Just curious on anyones thoughts on the shooting that took place in the Texas diner. Basically a robber came in, waving a gun around, took customers money and then starting exiting while still waving the gun around. Customer, when robber had passed him on the way out pulled his firearm and unloaded 8 shots into the back of the robber. Then a final execution style headshot. There is going to be a grand jury shortly. My 2 cents. Shooting may have been justified up to the point that he took the head shot. I have been taught in severlalfirearm courses/ security courses that you shoot only to eliminate the threat and no more. This seems way past that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #212 ·
Just curious on anyones thoughts on the shooting that took place in the Texas diner. Basically a robber came in, waving a gun around, took customers money and then starting exiting while still waving the gun around. Customer, when robber had passed him on the way out pulled his firearm and unloaded 8 shots into the back of the robber. Then a final execution style headshot. There is going to be a grand jury shortly. My 2 cents. Shooting may have been justified up to the point that he took the head shot. I have been taught in severlalfirearm courses/ security courses that you shoot only to eliminate the threat and no more. This seems way past that.
Threads merged as your topic has been addressed. See previous posts.
 

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Just curious on anyones thoughts on the shooting that took place in the Texas diner. Basically a robber came in, waving a gun around, took customers money and then starting exiting while still waving the gun around. Customer, when robber had passed him on the way out pulled his firearm and unloaded 8 shots into the back of the robber. Then a final execution style headshot. There is going to be a grand jury shortly. My 2 cents. Shooting may have been justified up to the point that he took the head shot. I have been taught in severlalfirearm courses/ security courses that you shoot only to eliminate the threat and no more. This seems way past that.
See the posts by RIP and Danzig above. The analysis by RIP is especially good, using the elements of self defense as articulated by Mass Ayoob and Andrew Branca.

It's important to watch the entire video of the shooting, see the Fox 26 Report posted above. I agree that the final headshot may be too much. The prosecutor may want to turn this into a deliberate killing, in combination with the shooter throwing a coffee cup at the shot robber.

Personally if I were on the grand jury I would vote against indicting the shooter.

Do you know whether there will be a grand jury? This is Texas, which is very pro gun. A prosecutor may not like to risk his career and chances of re-election in a situation like this.
 

· Glockin’ since 1993
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See the posts by RIP and Danzig above. The analysis by RIP is especially good, using the elements of self defense as articulated by Mass Ayoob and Andrew Branca.

It's important to watch the entire video of the shooting, see the Fox 26 Report posted above. I agree that the final headshot may be too much. The prosecutor may want to turn this into a deliberate killing, in combination with the shooter throwing a coffee cup at the shot robber.

Personally if I were on the grand jury I would vote against indicting the shooter.

Do you know whether there will be a grand jury? This is Texas, which is very pro gun. A prosecutor may not like to risk his career and chances of re-election in a situation like this.
It comes down to a number of issues. While Texas is generally very Pro Gun the big cities tend to be inundated with liberals. For the guy that shot the robber his shots taken after the suspect was down could get him in hot water. Fortunately for the shooter the Houston area has seen an uptick in violent crime and the citizenry has signaled that they’ve had enough.
I guess we’ll see.
 

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See the posts by RIP and Danzig above. The analysis by RIP is especially good, using the elements of self defense as articulated by Mass Ayoob and Andrew Branca.

It's important to watch the entire video of the shooting, see the Fox 26 Report posted above. I agree that the final headshot may be too much. The prosecutor may want to turn this into a deliberate killing, in combination with the shooter throwing a coffee cup at the shot robber.

Personally if I were on the grand jury I would vote against indicting the shooter.

Do you know whether there will be a grand jury? This is Texas, which is very pro gun. A prosecutor may not like to risk his career and chances of re-election in a situation like this.
I have read that there will be a grand jury.
 

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This is a long and detailed analysis by Andrew Branca, an attorney specialized in self defense. He has been teaching courses on self defense for decaces. He has an excellent book on self defense principles which is free ( $9 shipping) which I can highly recommend. (Between you and me, I'd buy his book but I wouldn't sign up for his program, not sure it's worth the money. I also watched his live YouTube video, and he seems a bit too eager to sell his services. But I digress.)

Reading this gives you pause "do I really have to go through all this legal cr** if I have seconds to decide whether or not to shoot in a situation like this?!?" and the answer is probably yes. Aside from training with your gun you have to train your mind to make sure you know where the boundaries are. If you look at the big picture that could decide whether you come out as a hero or whether you end up behind bars for maybe decades. Very stark differences.

 

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Discussion Starter · #220 ·
Analysis of the same Houston taqueria shootout by John Lovitt:

Thank you for posting this. Johnny, Ayoob, Hickok 45 are all real shooters. I appreciate their input.
I like Colion and some of the others. But, until they’ve been in real engagements, their views are an opinion.
 
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