Have You Ever Shot Anyone?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ROYALE-W-CHEESE, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

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    Have you ever shot anyone in self-defense or to defend another person? I'm referring to non-military situations (ie, LE and civilian scenarios).

    Would you care to share your story? We've all heard of or read others' stories; I'm wondering about your first-hand accounts. I've found myself thinking a lot of "what if" thoughts since I've become a gun owner recently, and of course how to handle those "what if" scenarios.

    Likewise, have you ever actually bugged-out? Has S ever HTF? Recent natural disasters reminded me of aftermath situations when all you really have is clothes on your back.

    If this is a taboo topic or bad form for me to ask in a public forum, please kindly nudge me.
     
  2. techiej

    techiej New Member

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    Had to bug out during the 2003 cedar fire in so cal.

    Was unable to return for 10 days and had no power for a couple of weeks afterwards.

    No fun.
     

  3. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

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    Did you grab your BOB plus firearm-of-choice? I suppose after a blaze there's not much looting or scavenging but were there any tricky situations upon return?
     
  4. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

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    Yes.

    It was horrible.

    Nightmares would not stop for years.

    If I could undo it, I would have, but I couldn't, so I just tried to cope.

    Headshots are incredibly messy. One side of the head literally explodes outward in all directions at high velocity. Bits of bone, brain, scalp, blood, all over, even as far as like 20 feet away on a ceiling over 8 feet high.

    And then there is the smell....you will never, ever, ever forget the smell. There is the nauseating wet-steel coppery smell of blood. And the dead defecate themselves.

    And the blood. You literally see the pool forming, and it gets bigger and bigger on the ground.

    And the twitches. We are so used to thinking a dead body drops like a sack of potatoes, but that is not true. Arms and fingers twitch. Feet twitch. It is unreal.

    And the bleeding in the head forces the eyeballs out of the sockets, forcing the eyelids open, and sightless eyes looking in different directions.

    It is horrible.

    That was more than 28 years ago, and now I am a firearms instructor.

    I tell my students now that I can give them the basis to develop physical proficiency with a firearm. I tell them that I can give them the foundations for knowing and understanding the laws governing the use of deadly force. From these two, I can help them develop the mental acuity necessary for armed survival. But what I cannot do is to prepare them psychologically for the aftermath. The best I can do is to tell them that the first bullet they ever fire in self-defense, will change their lives forever.

    Yes, it is very graphic, but it is important to understand that this is real life. It is not the movies. It is not a video game.

    It is horrible.
     
  5. Motorcharge

    Motorcharge New Member

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    Shot at, or in the general direction of anyway. Never hit anyone, but that was intentional. I've seen people dead up close and in person, but never from my own doing. Maybe it's different, but that sort of thing doesn't bother me. It's not that it doesn't effect me, I can respect what's happening but the smell of blood and the sight of most trauma I've encountered hasn't bothered me long term.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
  6. Whiskey

    Whiskey New Member

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    Interesting thread
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  7. Whiskey

    Whiskey New Member

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    Read "Deep Survival" good book
     
  8. iGlock

    iGlock Lead Farmer

    Been shot at but never fired back, didnt have firearm then.
     
  9. Had a group do a drive by on me and fellow security officers while working the outside of a club once.

    Giving the circumstances (cars on the road, house on the other side of the road, etc) all we could do is take cover.
     
  10. I've been shot at but never shot at any one else
     
  11. Tape

    Tape New Member

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    killed a young man that tried to rob me with a knife, he stabbed me once "left upper hip/waist" while I was trying to draw and he was on his way down with another towards my face/neck and BOOM. It dropped him like a sack of potatoes. I used my G22, I still use it, the bullet went under his chin and out the top/back of his head. I bet I told the police the story 50 times and they kept my pistol for about 3 months, it seemed like a couple of years, I kept calling them telling them I need my EDC weapon. Never had any nitemares or lost sleep but I did feel bad for the boy but I had NO choice. I do know what I will do next time, I know what to look for, position and timing, different holster, ammo, you learn so much when you actually go through something like that.
     
  12. iRockGlock

    iRockGlock Well-Known Member

    Thanks for sharing
     
  13. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

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    This is the type of thing one can never really know and fully understand until experienced. I'm hoping to garner as much as I can that I may hope to have as many bases covered as possible even if I can never really be prepared.

    Thanks for relating your insights.
     
  14. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

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    What specifically have you done differently since then? What would you do differently if it occurred today?
     
  15. Seawolf

    Seawolf New Member

    Luckily I have never taken another human life and I hope I never have to.

    As a former LEO I want to offer up some advice if you ever find yourself involved in a lethal force situation. We all train for what to do if we have to use lethal force, but rarely do we train on what to do afterwards. First thing to understand is that the Police really have limited information when arriving onto a shooting scene and many times there will be chaos and confusion. Law Enforcement are trained to assume anyone could be the bad guy until proven otherwise so when they arrive on scene expect to at least initially be treated like a criminal. I know it sux and the last thing you want to be made to feel like is a criminal after you have just defended yourself, but LE take no chances when it comes to Officer safety so expect it.

    Here are some tips if you ever find yourself involved in a shooting.

    1- Asses and check for other threats. Once no other threats exsist secure and holster your firearm. DO NOT have that firearm out when the Police arrive.

    2- Call 911 immediately. Be the first to call 911 if at all possible and do not rely on anyone else to do it for you. When speaking with the dispatcher remember that everything you say over the phone to 911 is recorded and admissable in court. Miranda warnings do not apply to 911. When talking to 911 STAY CALM! it's going to be very difficult to not freak out, but the first contact with 911 is crucial. Speak slowly and do not give a long drawn out play by play of what happened. Just like dragnet "Just the facts"
    Try to avoid terms like "Blown away" or "I just shot a guy" lol trust me people say stupid sh*t under stress. BE PROFESSIONAL! use terms like "Defend myself" "Forced to protect myself" "I was in fear for my life" The second you start talking to 911 evidence starts being collected.

    It is crucial that dispatch has your physical description and that they relay this information to arriving units. Advise the dispatcher that you are armed, but your sidearm is secured and holstered. Make sure you ask for an ambulance for the victim and advise dispatch that you are starting CPR or aiding the aggressor (unless of course the aggressor is still aggressive and just incapacitated). Make sure to stay on the phone with 911 until units arrive and take over.

    3- As with 911 make sure that you are calm and follow instructions by LE. As I stated tensions will be high and LE may not know yet what's going on. If they draw on you and start barking out commands don't freak out they are just following their training. Comply and advise them that you are armed and where it is on your person. Let LE take control of the firearm. When LE starts asking what happened calmly start from the beginning and give them the facts without going into too much detail.

    "I was pumping gas and this guy over here came up behind me with a knife and said he would slit my throat if I didn't give him my wallet. He grabbed me and I was afraid he was going to kill me so I drew my weapon and fired two rounds into his chest. He then fell to the ground and I called 911 and started CPR. I was in fear of my life and I honestly thought he was going to kill me."

    Beyond that what you want to say is up to you, but at any time you are entitled to remain silent and have an attorney present during questioning. Be prepared to spend a long day or night at the PD answering a lot of questions. Even if it is a clear self defense situation the Police are required to investigate it and you will be spending time at the PD. How much you tell the police is really up to you, but I will say this. While there can be a few jackwagons in Law Enforcement the majority of Officers and Investigators are just interested in the truth and if charges are in order then they pursue them. If it's clearly a self defense scenario then you have nothing to worry about and communication will only help you.
    Some will advise that you should clam up and say nothing without a lawyer, but doing that runs the risk of forcing the Police to form their own synopsis of what happened based on witness reports and physical evidence. My advice is if it's a good shoot help the Police with all the info you can give them. If not a good shoot, well then you might want to get an attorney.

    4- As far as your firearm is concerned be prepaired to lose it for a while. As Tape posted you will lose that gun for a while while it's being processed and put through ballistics. One of the things I always warn 1911 CCW guys about is yes that brand new Nighthawk custom 1911 you bought for $3,000 is beautiful, but if you ever have to use it in a lethal force situation it gets confiscated as evidence for a long time. This is one of the reasons why I like carrying a Glock. I have multiple Glocks and if I am unfortunant enough to have my sidearm taken for evidence for a while I am only out $400 and I have backups to carry until I get it back. Now that may not mean anything to the guy that has 15 nighthawks in his safe, but for most of us living paycheck to paycheck losing a $400 gun is a big deal much less a $3,000 custom 1911.

    Maybe some of this stuff will help. At the very least maybe it gets some of you thinking about it and I would recommend finding a good pro gun lawyer in your area and consult with them on CCW rights. It's a good idea to go online and review your State's statutes and CCW laws at least once a year. The NRA does a good job of keeping track of gun law changes, but sometimes they do something as simple as change the wording and it could make a huge difference. Keep on top of gun laws in your State.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  16. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

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    I fully understand your POV, Seawolf. I hoped to negotiate that by asking for the gentle nudge. I can only assure you my questions are genuine. (This being the Internet and you having no way to look me in the eye, I am aware that there is natural skepticism.)

    To answer your question, I hope to gain insight. To learn from others' experiences. For example, Tape states that there were things he'd do differently. If at all possible, could I also avoid similar "mistakes" for lack of a better word? (In his example, I wonder if he meant the whole situation could've been handled/prevented further upstream. In other threads, the ones about the civilian being shot at Costco and the young man being shot in the gated community while carrying Skittles in his pocket... Review and analysis suggest that both shootings might've been handled differently to prevent fatalities. In Tape's specific case, I understand the stabbing requires lethal force.)

    I've never been in a fight for life. I wonder about duress. Muscle memory can be trained; but duress is harder to simulate. I am new to guns but not new to coaching and learning. Information helps.

    For example, I've tried to envision a home break-in scenario while I'm asleep. The way my house is laid out, I would likely encounter the intruder in my hallway. However, my hallway (and bullet flight) also points directly into my neighbor's house. This is an example of something I DO want to consider beforehand and something I DON'T want to ponder at the moment of truth, so to speak.

    When did Noah build the Ark? Before the flood.

    In my original post, I tried to be cautious about how I tread into this topic. I assumed if someone didn't want to share (for any reason) or didn't want to share too much, they wouldn't. And it would be no further questions asked.

    I intend neither offense nor disingenuousness. If I've offended anyone, we can delete or end this thread right here. I would then reserve my research for personal face-to-face enquiries.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  17. Whiskey

    Whiskey New Member

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    It's a public forum man, don't be put off by what others think. I think it's a great way to gain insight and knowledge about situations that could occur and hear those who have been in those exact life threatening situations. I find it extremely interesting to hear people recall such events and tell their stories. People feel as if they should block it out of their minds and hide graphic images from the public when in actuality the best thing you can do is talk about it, even if it's on a free Glock forum. I'm all about psychology and how the mind works in situations like that, I find it fascinating to hear about humans being able to lift boulders off of their bodies weighing near 1000 pounds and drag themselves on a 4 miles hiking trail to find help. There's all kinds of books and crap about it, but actual stories, smells, visualizations, sounds...can only be told by the person experiencing it and what else to do but to get to the point and simply "ask". My great grandfather was in 1st Marine division in WW2 in the pacific. Made a tv series about those soldiers called..."The Pacific". My mom overheard him talking about all kinds of stories such as waking up to take a piss and being face to face with the enemy having to use a knife. Old people can tell you a lot. I work at a hospital and all I do is ask the old guys what their tattoos mean and what they did when they served. They don't look like much at 80-90 years old, but some of them have amazing stories and were badass mothers in their day. I love it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  18. Tape

    Tape New Member

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    Ammo for one, I use FMJ now, nobody really needs JHP but it is your weapon, my G22 has 16rds of pure FMJ hell, I am thinking about using my G21sf .45APC, JHP removes to much human tissue, FMJ just drills without tearing. I will never use JHP ever, and if I just happen to get some it will be range ammo. Positioning, make sure my weapons hand can't be pinned up against the wall/building if the perp wraps you up or pushes you against the wall/building, usually the person do this know from experience as well, how to tie someone up larger than you. Watch for lite streets and be prepared when going down a poorly lite street which I learned as well.

    good points by Seawolf, it is hard to prepare for the real thing unless you have 3-4 friends you can train with. For those that have been in the military understand training when the negative finally happens.

    ROYALE, I really believe you temporary lose your mind when things are happening but if you train and train well your training takes over instantly.
    I changed to a different holster, I have one now that is not a IMI Glock Polymer Retention Holster no buttons. I just noticed that Seawolf was a LEO so I am done here, it is stressful just thinking about it, Seawolf brings up some great advise like I said earlier, just read his post as I am going too, I am sure he is covering some good points that I have not experienced yet and hope I do not again. It is very stressful whether you are right or wrong and if you are wrong you will be in some bad times.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  19. Tape

    Tape New Member

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    Seawolf, thank you my friend for that excellent post, people what he says is gold. Yeah I did get jacked up but all got straightened out. What is great is we get an officers POV and a victims POV. You have to understand because it can make you lose your head, that officer rolling up do not know who you are, I was screaming but I don't think he heard me so I did everything until the yelling stopped then I would speak randomly. As far as that officer knows is you're the perp's partner.
     
  20. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

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    @Royale-W-Cheese:
    I personally applaud your approach. Tactful and gently worded so as not to offend. Good job.

    Witness the xxx views (with only a handful of comments), there are others curious as well but who may have nothing germane to add. Thankfully, we haven't gotten an trolls trying to piss on your thread. :)

    Back to your question:

    As a CCW Instructor, here are some pointers I tell all my students, as advice not rules:

    1. As Seawold said, if at all possible, be the first to call 911. Make sure you are safe on the scene first and foremost (you don't know if the bleeding body at your feet has buddies hiding in the shadows).

    2. NEVER say "I shot someone" or "I had to shoot him". This can be twisted around in court into an open admission of guilt. You should not feel guilty about defending yourself or others, but you have to always be aware that anything and everything you say can be used against you. Like Seawold said, present it as "I had no choice but to defend myself". I warn my students: the rush of relief when it is over, coupled with the overabundance of adrenaline, on top of what you perceive as your "saviors" arriving (the police), can all cause people to suffer diarhhea of the mouth. Watch out for this.

    3. Again, like Seawolf said, make sure the 911 operator has your description and what you are wearing. One other thing that may help is to give responding agencies a visual cue....like turning on the hazard lights of your car parked in the driveway. It makes it easier for them to locate you house. If at night, turn on all outside lights.

    4. Be prepared to be handcuffed and sat down on the sidewalk or in the cruiser. This is not because of you have just shot somebody. Police arriving on the scene know nothing about the personalities on the scene, and are simply securing the scene for themselves until they can determine who is who. Especially if in your own home, where you could potentially have other firearms stashed (or laying) about. They are making sure the scene is safe for them, before they get into the preliminary investigative motions.

    5. Always cooperate, but be careful what you say. This is especially important when they ask how many shots did you fire. Civilians are entitled to "panic-fire", because they lack the physical and mental training that all law enforcement officers undergo. You will be asked (repeatedly) how many rounds you fired, or how many rounds were in the gun. This is because the investigation will need to account for each and every shot fired, including identifying the bullet impacts. "Yes, officer, the magazine was full. No, sir, I do not remember how many rounds were fired, I was so nervous, nothing like this has ever happened to me." If you mistakenly say you fired 3 rounds and 4 casings were found, records will show you initially told police you fired 3 when in fact the evidence shows you fired 4. If you mistakenly say you fired 4 but actually fired only 3, they will search mercilessly for the 4th casing and the 4th bullet impact.

    6. Unless there are obvious signs that you are not being totally truthful, you will not be initially arrested (and subsequently charged). You may be taken into custody, if only to ensure that you do not flee. To help avoid this, be totally cooperative to officers on the scene. As the evidence (or sequence of events) is revealed to officers, there is the strong possibility that they will accept your narration of the events (if it can be substantiated), which may put them on your side of the story. So tell them something like, "You have my full cooperation" and actually do it (short of watching your words). Do not suffer from diarrhea of the mouth. Do not babble, but if you do babble, include incoherent phrases, and ask for an ambulance for yourself (see #7). If on the scene you tell officers that you wish to have a lawyer present, as is your right, it will come across to them that you may have something to hide, which gives them all the more reason to take you into protective custody (see #9).

    7. Except if you are young and fit enough to be a cage boxer, an easy way to guarantee some breathing space for yourself is to ask for an ambulance to take you to the hospital. Lightheadedness, chest pains, uncontrollable shaking, blurring on the periphery of your vision, difficulty breathing, any or all of these symptoms would indicate you need to take a breather, and perhaps a sedative, which is not possible with 10 patrol cars with lights flashing and 20 officers crawling all over your house. Ask to be taken to the hospital. It puts you in the hands of proper medical care, and removes you from the scene. It also guarantees you will not spend that night in protective custody.

    8. You will be repeatedly questioned by different officers again and again about what happened, especially if your initial statements were intentionally vague. This is normal. This is expected. You may feel pressured, but remember that the pressure is actually on the investigating officers and later the detectives. They are under pressure to make sure they have the official story right, and that they either do not need to take further action or they need to take the investigation deeper. It is their job to do so.

    9. It is not unknown for police to take otherwise legitimate shooters into custody pending questioning (and preparation of charges if deemed necessary). Remeber that while you can request a lawyer during questioning, that does not happen until after they actually begin the interview, which could be some hours after they put you into a holding cell. Generally, you do not want to say "I want a lawyer" flat out from the get-go, it simply looks bad. Another way of saying it would be that you will cooperate fully, but are so traumatized by what happened (police will generally sympathize with a civilian "softie" saying this) and would very much like to spend some time with your family or need to be taken to the hospital. This gives you some breathing space, and time in which to contact an attorney yourself. If you promised to show up at the station the next day, do so without announcing that you have an attorney with you.

    10. In regards to fear of potentially launching a round that could pose a threat to your neighbors, carefully considering the choice of caliber and loading is required. This is why inside the house, my family and I rely more on shotguns than on handguns. This is also coupled with doing a walkthru of your house to determine "safe direction" firing. It is to your credit, Royale-W-Cheese, that you are looking at this and considering this in your home.

    As a sidenote: a bit of advice that I tell my students is that you must yell. At the top of your lungs. As loud as you possibly can, in as demanding a tone as you possibly can. Even if you are chasing the guy outta the bedroom, down the hall, down the stairs, and thru the living room, yell "Get away from me! Stop!", even if you are chasing him, before you fire. Neighbors will be alerted to the yelling. They will verify this with the police when interviewed. "Yes, I hear him yelling over and over for the guy to stop and to get away from him, he must've yelled like a dozen times, and then there was a single gunshot." Do you see how this would work in your favor?

    In public, be aware that while we all have a "personal space", when armed, your personal space enlarges. If someone suspicious approaches you, say while you are pumping gas, then in a commanding voice tell him that you have nothing to give him, that he needs to back away and leave you alone. Do not be afraid of being rude to them, after all, they are the ones approaching you. As an added benefit, your voice attracts attention of others, potential witnesses that would work in your favor. The more bystanders around you that become aware of something out of the ordinary, the more likely that (hopefully) one of them will get a description of the bad guy and a narration of events that support yours, and maybe even the bad guys' license plate. Again, do not be afraid of raising your voice and commanding someone to back away, just do not (or avoid) using profanity, because profanity has the effect of making you look like the aggressor. You don't want that.

    Hope this helps!