[Sarabian]

W. Va. Code § 61-2-9a. Stalking; harassment; penalties; definitions. (2008)
(a) Any person who repeatedly follows another knowing or having reason to know that the conduct causes the person followed to reasonably fear for his or her safety or suffer significant emotional distress, is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be incarcerated in the county or regional jail for not more than six months or fined not more than one thousand dollars, or both.[/FONT]
http://www.ncvc.org/src/main.aspx?dbID=DB_WestVirginia454

In West Virginia, following someone ISN'T always legal and there CAN be something wrong with it.

Now you have to prove that this was not only stalking (you have to demonstrate how this made you fear for your safety or suffer some sort of emotional distress AND that this person was actually following you and not just shopping in the same areas), but that you were justified in taking aggressive physical action against that person. Having someone simply follow you is not grounds to get physical. Still battery so far (clarifications in other responses notwithstanding).

Edit: Forgot about the word "repeatedly" in the quoted law. Can you demonstrate repeat occurrences?

This is getting fun

 

[Happysniper1]

Maybe one with spikes... that would be interesting... especially around Christmas time

The picture that brings to mind is hilarious!

In the news today, at a local walmart, an armed man was arrested and charged with assault with intent to kill when the branches of his Christmas Tree decor in his cart poked out the eye of a local woman.

The victim, 67 year old Arlene Whatevername, said her life flashed before her eye (since the other eye got poked out), and she feared for her life. She refuses further comment, and her attorneys have not issued a statement. She says that her eye then fell on the floor, and was accidentally squished by a Walmart employee rushing to her aid. No word on whether this employee, who has not been identified, will be facing charges for stepping on her eye.

The would-be killer, 99-year old Jonathan Whosehisface, a local resident, is being held in leu of $20Million bail on attempted murder charges, and says that the victim was following him around throughout the store, and would not leave him alone. His attorney, Alex Greasebag, has issued a statement that the incident was simply an unfortunate accident, caused by a man turning his cart around in the aisle, and thus encountering the victim, who it must be noted, was a woman of extensive girth. In his incomplete statement, Greasebag noted that while his client was indeed carrying a concealed handgun and had the proper permits to do so, it had nothing to do with the incident, and in fact the presence of the gun was only known when he was taken to central booking. At the time, Whosehisface was still unconscious due to the multiple tasings by responding Deputies. The latter portions of Greasbag's statement on behalf of his client could not be heard over the chanting of the crowd, saying "no more guns."

In other news, former President Clinton appeared before the nation today to call for a revision of the 2nd Amendment. Citing the recent attempted killing of a woman in Walmart by an armed assailant, Clinton said "it is time for America to disarm the rebellous citizens bent on evil doing who have armed themselves with assault pistols...."

More news at 10:00....

 

[Happysniper1]

Actually, the cart is an extension of you in this case since it is in your direct control and if (emphasis on the "if" and in no way saying you did) it is proven that you did this on purpose (not easy to prove) battery still holds.

I wonder what the statistics are, arrest rates versus convictions, and such, for assault with a shopping cart.

Any stats you can share?

 

[Happysniper1]

Now you have to prove that this was not only stalking (you have to demonstrate how this made you fear for your safety or suffer some sort of emotional distress AND that this person was actually following you and not just shopping in the same areas), but that you were justified in taking aggressive physical action against that person. Having someone simply follow you is not grounds to get physical. Still battery so far (clarifications in other responses notwithstanding).

Edit: Forgot about the word "repeatedly" in the quoted law. Can you demonstrate repeat occurrences?

This is getting fun

I would imagine, and this is just me, that if some dude in a dark zip-up jacket would follow me and my shopping cart from toys to hardware and back to toys then over to groceries frozen section (clear across the entire width of the Walmart, mind you), then over to the dog food section, then the ladies' cosmetics, all this time he is just following you without a shopping cart and not taking any items off the shelf, and who is looking directly at you every time you glance backwards at him, that this would make anyone, even you, Sarabian, wonder if you were being followed.

And, in light of the other posts on this thread, I really would like to see some stats, case history and such, of someone being arrested and charged and sentenced for turning around in an aisle and bumping into someone else. Please, Sarabian, share your expertise and support the laws with a track record of convictions.

Anyone can quote laws out of context, but we are all relying on you to prove that assault can be charged in the case of using a shopping cart. Please, Sarabian, I am dying to read the proofs....

 

[series11]

The picture that brings to mind is hilarious!

In the news today, at a local walmart, an armed man was arrested and charged with assault with intent to kill when the branches of his Christmas Tree decor in his cart poked out the eye of a local woman.

The victim, 67 year old Arlene Whatevername, said her life flashed before her eye (since the other eye got poked out), and she feared for her life. She refuses further comment, and her attorneys have not issued a statement. She says that her eye then fell on the floor, and was accidentally squished by a Walmart employee rushing to her aid. No word on whether this employee, who has not been identified, will be facing charges for stepping on her eye.

The would-be killer, 99-year old Jonathan Whosehisface, a local resident, is being held in leu of $20Million bail on attempted murder charges, and says that the victim was following him around throughout the store, and would not leave him alone. His attorney, Alex Greasebag, has issued a statement that the incident was simply an unfortunate accident, caused by a man turning his cart around in the aisle, and thus encountering the victim, who it must be noted, was a woman of extensive girth. In his incomplete statement, Greasebag noted that while his client was indeed carrying a concealed handgun and had the proper permits to do so, it had nothing to do with the incident, and in fact the presence of the gun was only known when he was taken to central booking. At the time, Whosehisface was still unconscious due to the multiple tasings by responding Deputies. The latter portions of Greasbag's statement on behalf of his client could not be heard over the chanting of the crowd, saying "no more guns."

In other news, former President Clinton appeared before the nation today to call for a revision of the 2nd Amendment. Citing the recent attempted killing of a woman in Walmart by an armed assailant, Clinton said "it is time for America to disarm the rebellous citizens bent on evil doing who have armed themselves with assault pistols...."

More news at 10:00....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is awesome and is so realistic!!!!!!!!

Nice Job!!!!

 

[Matthew780]

I wonder if a shopping cart can be construed as a deadly weapon?

I don't know about "construed", lol. But almost anything on earth can be used as a deadly weapon if someone wants to kill someone with it... ex. pens, pencils, garbage bags, cars, hammers, screwdrivers, guns, shovels, axes, ect., ect., etc.. you know... Tools are tools. It's the people behind them that are the problem. NOT the tool.

And for the record, it's obvious you meant the man no harm, or he would have been harmed. You were wanting to safely inquire as to why he was stealthily stalking you. In THIS State, that isn't a problem, I don't think.

Adding also: Around here? If you jailed everyone for such a thing as what you did Sniper? It would be impossible to house them all... But I'll admit... Liberals LOVE to micro-manage.

 

[Happysniper1]

@Matthew780:

Yep, like baseball bats...a deadly weapon when presented in a rude, angry or threatening manner or as part of a rude, angry or threatening gesture.

As soon as Sarabian can show statistics of conviction rates for assault and battery with a shopping cart, I will ask him about any statistics on conviction rates at ball games of people charged with assault and battery with baseball bats when there is no altercation evident, i.e., like in someone carrying a bat (which people will swing, naturally) while walking to the parking lot, and accidentally hitting someone else walking too close behind them....Hmmmm....for that matter, how about the wood posts people carry signs on, like those demonstrating against guns, and accidentally hitting others in their own crowd....wonder what the conviction rate for assault and battery would be on THAT one!

*PS* Still waiting on statistics for assaults with a shopping cart....and all I hear is crickets....

 

[series11]

I wonder what the statistics are, arrest rates versus convictions, and such, for assault with a shopping cart.

Any stats you can share?

http://www.thelocal.se/38940/20120206/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ca-judge-deems-ramming-jewish-woman-with-shopping-cart-free-speech/

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shopping-cart-assault-20120229,0,7105496.story

Best I could find quickly. Not stats but stories

 

[Caseyglock19]

That's what I was told in my ccw class and my buddy is on the tribal police force. He said you can't even have an unloaded gun in your car. I will ask him where I can find and post some info from the internet.

 

[Happysniper1]

http://www.thelocal.se/38940/20120206/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ca-judge-deems-ramming-jewish-woman-with-shopping-cart-free-speech/

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shopping-cart-assault-20120229,0,7105496.story

Best I could find quickly. Not stats but stories

First one, the 89-year old was in a conflict over passage with another shopper, and hit her cart with his cart, and he did it twice. Not the same, buddy.

In the second one, the cart was indeed used as a weapon during a racially themed demonstration. Not the same, buddy.

In the third one, the kid used the shopping cart as a missle, tossing them on the the pedestrian walkway. Not the same, buddy.

Sarabian specifically pointed to my turning in the aisle with my shopping cart, and bumping the guy that was following me, causing him to lean back onto the aisle shelves.

Let's see some stats on that, if we would....

 

[Gun_Aficionado]

There is a Member on here who will tell you that there are, in so many words, no restrictions on anything anywhere in AZ. I do not know this for a fact, but I do know what I myself know....does that make sense?

I recently completed CCW course in Az and based on the class permit or not you are not allowed to carry concealed or otherwise on tribal land. You can carry on interstate in your car as you drive through. At least that is what was said in class.

 

[Matthew780]

Now you have to prove that this was not only stalking (you have to demonstrate how this made you fear for your safety or suffer some sort of emotional distress AND that this person was actually following you and not just shopping in the same areas), but that you were justified in taking aggressive physical action against that person. Having someone simply follow you is not grounds to get physical. Still battery so far (clarifications in other responses notwithstanding).

Edit: Forgot about the word "repeatedly" in the quoted law. Can you demonstrate repeat occurrences?

This is getting fun

You can "charge" anybody, with anything, at any time. Charging someone is easy. Convicting them is where the burden lay... and the "burden of proof" is on the one pressing the charges. Sarabian, would you be willing to charge Sniper with battery over what he did? Did you do so while in service? Charge people in this fashion? I'm just wondering. If so, it HAD to be a very small town or you had one hell of a big jail.

Proving Sniper was concerned over the actions of the unidentified security officer is easy. If he hadn't had cause for concern, Sniper would have not taken to action. There was no other motive. Correct? Emotional distress is evident. Sniper is an open carry kind of guy that takes it seriously enough to be aware of his surroundings and do his best to identify any threat as early as possible.

This was not a "repeat offense" if you group all of this officer's actions into a heap in this one instance. But he could be perceived as planning his moment of attack which was probably what was actually on Sniper's mind at the time. IF someone... anyone is "following", there is a motive. And if that motive is unknown to you, it is threatening. Agreed? I think you would perceive it the same way, Sarabian. Heck. We all would. Wouldn't we?

The guard should have immediately identified himself and his motives then proceeded with his course of action. It was doubtful he was ever there to "thwart" anything if he suspected Sniper was going to rob the place at gunpoint. He just did his job in amateur fashion and got called on it. Battery? Hardly.

Bottom line is, if you took this to court around here Sarabian, it would get dismissed and the Judge would have a good, long talk with you afterwards. Seen it happen. IF you are/were a real Police Chief (?), you know what I'm saying is true.

Hell... All this is a nickel's worth at least! LOL!

0.05$

 

[Support Gunner]

.......I wonder if a shopping cart can be construed as a deadly weapon?

I say yes depending on how it is used. I'm under the impression that your hands can be considered a deadly weapon if you have been trained properly to use them as such.


An to the OP, that gets me mad every time when someone tries to correct you when them themselves don't truly know what they are talking about. To me it speaks a lot about their character.

 

[series11]

First one, the 89-year old was in a conflict over passage with another shopper, and hit her cart with his cart, and he did it twice. Not the same, buddy.

In the second one, the cart was indeed used as a weapon during a racially themed demonstration. Not the same, buddy.

In the third one, the kid used the shopping cart as a missle, tossing them on the the pedestrian walkway. Not the same, buddy.

Sarabian specifically pointed to my turning in the aisle with my shopping cart, and bumping the guy that was following me, causing him to lean back onto the aisle shelves.

Let's see some stats on that, if we would....

Eh, it was the first three I found. Seriously I would like to see actual stats as well...

 

[Sarabian]

I was having fun with this, but upon listening to the sarcasm drip and having myself being painted the fool I'll just leave you alone. Nice moderation.

 

[Happysniper1]

Now, for the record, let me state that this guy (who was a real skinny looking guy with a dark blue zippered windbreaker on and blue jeans with black sneakers on, no visible ID and no uniform, nothing really remarkable about his appearance) was following me from when I first noticed him follow me from the electronics section (I was looking at flastscreen TV mounting brackets) as I went thru the toys section using the inside pathway (not the main aisle) then the hardware section (thu all 12 or so aisles of car and hardware), and back to the toys section via the main pathway (all of this in the back of the store), then I went completely across the entire width of the back of the store to get to the frozen foods section, still there....I went to the front of the store, and again across the entire width of the store to the dog food section, still there...so I went to the lipstick/makeup area, actually stopped in the middle of the aisle, and when he came around the end of the aisle I was 100% certain he was following me, so I went back to hardware, into the aisle where they have small power tools, drill bits, router bits, etc, because I know there are cameras covering that aisle. When he came around the end of the aisle behind me (I kept my eyes on the video camera monitor above me on the aisle), I made a 180 and he was so close to me that he backed up, and hit his back on the aisle shelving, and with my shopping cart he could not advance on me. It was at this point that I asked him why he was following me.

Now, although my carry holster is OWB, it was covered by a zipped-up jacket that day, like I usually do. The gun was not visible. And we have no legal issues here with respect to "printing".

At the time, given there was absolutely no doubt at all in my mind that this guy was following me, the options in my head were:

1. Go to customer service and report him, and maybe look like a fool in their eyes (oh, yah, a worrywart).
2. Ignore him and maybe get robbed in the parking lot, and/or carjacked.
3. Call 911 (yeah, right?)
4. Make a scene to force people to notice (good luck with that one)
5. Do what I did.

What would you have done, Sarabian?

 

[Matthew780]

I was having fun with this, but upon listening to the sarcasm drip and having myself being painted the fool I'll just leave you alone. Nice moderation.

Hell. Me too! No one is actually serious here are they? HAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's the funny thing about "motives"... Sometimes it's just hard to tell. Eh?

I'm sorry for mis-understanding yours, Sarabian. Really.

 

[series11]

1. Go to customer service and report him, and maybe look like a fool in their eyes (oh, yah, a worrywart).
2. Ignore him and maybe get robbed in the parking lot, and/or carjacked.
3. Call 911 (yeah, right?)
4. Make a scene to force people to notice (good luck with that one)
5. Do what I did.

What would you have done, Sarabian?

I might do 1 or 5 depending on the situation.

 

[Sarabian]

Me? I personally would have turned with the cart between us and asked him why he was following me without making physical contact and would have done it with distance to keep him back. From what you typed it wouldn't have been hard to wait until you were in a main aisle, or even near the employee area in electronics to confront him peaceably and with some distance. My gun side would have been away from him in the event it was needed.

My only point was in how you originally stated it you made it sound like you shoved him against a shelf and demanded to know why he was following you. I was simply cautioning people against making physical contact. Take it however you like, but based on what you said you committed battery, even if it can't be proven in court. You said you intentionally blocked him in with the cart and made physical contact while doing it. B misdemeanor here. If he had so much as a red mark from a shelf or hook, that would have satisfied injury in this state and you could have been jailed on an A misdemeanor. Want me to cite case law? Not gonna happen. If I was called to a Wal*Mart and this story was shown to me on the security cameras and I saw a mark, I would have made the arrest. Have fun with the defense.

Any other LEOs want to give a viewpoint from their jurisdiction? I'd be interested to hear.

 

[Happysniper1]

This is getting fun

I was having fun with this

I was merely responding in a detailed fashion to your declaration that I could have gone to jail for this.

Quoting the law is one thing, taking a segment of an incident and holding it up to the law without context is another thing.

Anyone can "what-if" any law, I would suppose, but to use it in light of an incident being described, and to have "fun" with it while doing so, while simultaneously taking it out of context, and then complaining that you are "being painted the fool" when asked to put it into context, well....

All I did was ask you to back it up with statistics in the context of what I did. Now, if you would like to come over here and charge me for it, you are welcome to do that, but this forum is for intelligent discussion, and that is what we were having.

And your parting shot of "Nice moderation." is uncalled for.