[Happysniper1]

I am told (by a fellow FA training instructor) that Walmart once prohibited guns in their buildings, until a woman was robbed and molested in a Walmart parking lot as she walked to her car. The woman was a CCW holder, and due to Walmart's gun prohibition she was forced to leave her gun in her car. Well, she turned around and sued Walmart, and won, hence the gun prohibition was struck down.

Also explains why one of the Walmarts here in town still allows CC firearms on its premises, even after 2 shooting incidents inside the store (same store).

Now, a number of new Walmarts are cropping up around town....on Tribal land! They get a tax break from the Gov't but have to deal with whatever arrangements with Tribal Council, and (over here) guns are not allowed on Tribal Land. The Three Nations Wallmart in Reno sits on Tribal land, does not sell guns or ammo (although all the other Walmarts in town do), and sometimes a Tribal Police SUV can be seen in the parking lot. Tribal Law supercedes even Federal Law on Tribal Land.

And funny that the one and only time I was ever accosted about my gun was in a Walmart (the same one where the 2 shootings occured) many years ago...it was a Beretta 92G in an Uncle Mike's minimalist holster OWB, and I had on a zippered windbreaker. I guess at some point while reaching for something the muzzle may have peeked out under the windbreaker? I don't know. But someone was following me around inside the Walmart, so I went to the small power tools section (where I know there is a surveillance camera), and when the guy turned the aisle I slammed him into the aisle and asked him why he was following me around. He said he was Walmart security, and that someone had said I had a gun. Told him yes, I have a gun, and a permit, too. He apologized for bothering me, and left, without asking to see the permit, gun, or ID.

 

[Happysniper1]

I know in ........ and AZ they're all over.

There is a Member on here who will tell you that there are, in so many words, no restrictions on anything anywhere in AZ. I do not know this for a fact, but I do know what I myself know....does that make sense?

 

[Happysniper1]

It's almost funny, I was in one of the older Walmarts in town (that has since moved to a bigger location to qualify as a "superstore"), it was like 2AM (needed milk for my coffee! what can I say?) anyway I am in the dairy section and I hear what I would swear was gunfire, possibly .22 or .25-cal...single shots, then a couple in sequence, and so on.

Nobody was panicking, no screams, looked like everything was normal, but as I continued to hear the shots, I was thinking to myself "what's wrong with these people? don't they know they are in danger?"....kept walking around, bottle of Model Dairy in left had, right hand free to draw if needed....until I reached the customer service/layaway area...lots of construction going on, and there was a guy using a bolt gun to anchor a steel storage rack to the concrete floor...the kind of bolt gun that uses .22 blanks....sheepishly, I thought "no wonder"....and continued on my way.

 

[Happysniper1]

I really really hope you didn't mean you literally slammed him against an aisle for following you. That's called battery and is illegal in all 50 states. In most states it goes to a felony level if you are armed. There is nothing wrong with following someone and to "slam them into the aisle" can and should send a person to jail.

He got forced into the aisle by my shopping cart....you know how you suddenly make a 180 in the aisle and peole need to get out of the way? He backed up, and hit the display. I would never let a "suspicious person" within arms' reach of my person. And as far as anyone is concerned, I simply did a 180, rather quickly though, with my shopping cart.

I wonder if a shopping cart can be construed as a deadly weapon?

 

[Happysniper1]

@Sarabian:

IC 35-42-2 "A person who knowingly or intentionally touches another person in a rude, insolent, or angry manner commits battery, a class B misdemeanor.

See emphasis. Hope that answers your question.

 

[Happysniper1]

In AZ you CANNOT cc on tribal lands.

Would you be able to post some quote of law of regulation that shares this declaration?

I ask because several times in other threads the subject has been brought up and the Audience has been told that there are no restrictions to possession of a firearm on tribal land.

In Nevada, it is not even legal to have an unloaded and secured (locked away) gun in your car when on tribal land, much less to OC or CC it. Only Tribal Police and local LEO (with "the advise and consent" of tribal police) can have guns on tribal land.

 

[Happysniper1]

Maybe one with spikes... that would be interesting... especially around Christmas time

The picture that brings to mind is hilarious!

In the news today, at a local walmart, an armed man was arrested and charged with assault with intent to kill when the branches of his Christmas Tree decor in his cart poked out the eye of a local woman.

The victim, 67 year old Arlene Whatevername, said her life flashed before her eye (since the other eye got poked out), and she feared for her life. She refuses further comment, and her attorneys have not issued a statement. She says that her eye then fell on the floor, and was accidentally squished by a Walmart employee rushing to her aid. No word on whether this employee, who has not been identified, will be facing charges for stepping on her eye.

The would-be killer, 99-year old Jonathan Whosehisface, a local resident, is being held in leu of $20Million bail on attempted murder charges, and says that the victim was following him around throughout the store, and would not leave him alone. His attorney, Alex Greasebag, has issued a statement that the incident was simply an unfortunate accident, caused by a man turning his cart around in the aisle, and thus encountering the victim, who it must be noted, was a woman of extensive girth. In his incomplete statement, Greasebag noted that while his client was indeed carrying a concealed handgun and had the proper permits to do so, it had nothing to do with the incident, and in fact the presence of the gun was only known when he was taken to central booking. At the time, Whosehisface was still unconscious due to the multiple tasings by responding Deputies. The latter portions of Greasbag's statement on behalf of his client could not be heard over the chanting of the crowd, saying "no more guns."

In other news, former President Clinton appeared before the nation today to call for a revision of the 2nd Amendment. Citing the recent attempted killing of a woman in Walmart by an armed assailant, Clinton said "it is time for America to disarm the rebellous citizens bent on evil doing who have armed themselves with assault pistols...."

More news at 10:00....

 

[Happysniper1]

Actually, the cart is an extension of you in this case since it is in your direct control and if (emphasis on the "if" and in no way saying you did) it is proven that you did this on purpose (not easy to prove) battery still holds.

I wonder what the statistics are, arrest rates versus convictions, and such, for assault with a shopping cart.

Any stats you can share?

 

[Happysniper1]

Now you have to prove that this was not only stalking (you have to demonstrate how this made you fear for your safety or suffer some sort of emotional distress AND that this person was actually following you and not just shopping in the same areas), but that you were justified in taking aggressive physical action against that person. Having someone simply follow you is not grounds to get physical. Still battery so far (clarifications in other responses notwithstanding).

Edit: Forgot about the word "repeatedly" in the quoted law. Can you demonstrate repeat occurrences?

This is getting fun

I would imagine, and this is just me, that if some dude in a dark zip-up jacket would follow me and my shopping cart from toys to hardware and back to toys then over to groceries frozen section (clear across the entire width of the Walmart, mind you), then over to the dog food section, then the ladies' cosmetics, all this time he is just following you without a shopping cart and not taking any items off the shelf, and who is looking directly at you every time you glance backwards at him, that this would make anyone, even you, Sarabian, wonder if you were being followed.

And, in light of the other posts on this thread, I really would like to see some stats, case history and such, of someone being arrested and charged and sentenced for turning around in an aisle and bumping into someone else. Please, Sarabian, share your expertise and support the laws with a track record of convictions.

Anyone can quote laws out of context, but we are all relying on you to prove that assault can be charged in the case of using a shopping cart. Please, Sarabian, I am dying to read the proofs....

 

[Happysniper1]

@Matthew780:

Yep, like baseball bats...a deadly weapon when presented in a rude, angry or threatening manner or as part of a rude, angry or threatening gesture.

As soon as Sarabian can show statistics of conviction rates for assault and battery with a shopping cart, I will ask him about any statistics on conviction rates at ball games of people charged with assault and battery with baseball bats when there is no altercation evident, i.e., like in someone carrying a bat (which people will swing, naturally) while walking to the parking lot, and accidentally hitting someone else walking too close behind them....Hmmmm....for that matter, how about the wood posts people carry signs on, like those demonstrating against guns, and accidentally hitting others in their own crowd....wonder what the conviction rate for assault and battery would be on THAT one!

*PS* Still waiting on statistics for assaults with a shopping cart....and all I hear is crickets....

 

[Happysniper1]

http://www.thelocal.se/38940/20120206/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ca-judge-deems-ramming-jewish-woman-with-shopping-cart-free-speech/

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shopping-cart-assault-20120229,0,7105496.story

Best I could find quickly. Not stats but stories

First one, the 89-year old was in a conflict over passage with another shopper, and hit her cart with his cart, and he did it twice. Not the same, buddy.

In the second one, the cart was indeed used as a weapon during a racially themed demonstration. Not the same, buddy.

In the third one, the kid used the shopping cart as a missle, tossing them on the the pedestrian walkway. Not the same, buddy.

Sarabian specifically pointed to my turning in the aisle with my shopping cart, and bumping the guy that was following me, causing him to lean back onto the aisle shelves.

Let's see some stats on that, if we would....

 

[Happysniper1]

Now, for the record, let me state that this guy (who was a real skinny looking guy with a dark blue zippered windbreaker on and blue jeans with black sneakers on, no visible ID and no uniform, nothing really remarkable about his appearance) was following me from when I first noticed him follow me from the electronics section (I was looking at flastscreen TV mounting brackets) as I went thru the toys section using the inside pathway (not the main aisle) then the hardware section (thu all 12 or so aisles of car and hardware), and back to the toys section via the main pathway (all of this in the back of the store), then I went completely across the entire width of the back of the store to get to the frozen foods section, still there....I went to the front of the store, and again across the entire width of the store to the dog food section, still there...so I went to the lipstick/makeup area, actually stopped in the middle of the aisle, and when he came around the end of the aisle I was 100% certain he was following me, so I went back to hardware, into the aisle where they have small power tools, drill bits, router bits, etc, because I know there are cameras covering that aisle. When he came around the end of the aisle behind me (I kept my eyes on the video camera monitor above me on the aisle), I made a 180 and he was so close to me that he backed up, and hit his back on the aisle shelving, and with my shopping cart he could not advance on me. It was at this point that I asked him why he was following me.

Now, although my carry holster is OWB, it was covered by a zipped-up jacket that day, like I usually do. The gun was not visible. And we have no legal issues here with respect to "printing".

At the time, given there was absolutely no doubt at all in my mind that this guy was following me, the options in my head were:

1. Go to customer service and report him, and maybe look like a fool in their eyes (oh, yah, a worrywart).
2. Ignore him and maybe get robbed in the parking lot, and/or carjacked.
3. Call 911 (yeah, right?)
4. Make a scene to force people to notice (good luck with that one)
5. Do what I did.

What would you have done, Sarabian?

 

[Happysniper1]

This is getting fun

I was having fun with this

I was merely responding in a detailed fashion to your declaration that I could have gone to jail for this.

Quoting the law is one thing, taking a segment of an incident and holding it up to the law without context is another thing.

Anyone can "what-if" any law, I would suppose, but to use it in light of an incident being described, and to have "fun" with it while doing so, while simultaneously taking it out of context, and then complaining that you are "being painted the fool" when asked to put it into context, well....

All I did was ask you to back it up with statistics in the context of what I did. Now, if you would like to come over here and charge me for it, you are welcome to do that, but this forum is for intelligent discussion, and that is what we were having.

And your parting shot of "Nice moderation." is uncalled for.

 

[Happysniper1]

Wow, Sarabian, you make it sound like I rammed him going full speed ahead, "red marks" and all.

Now, who is getting personal?

 

[Happysniper1]

Yep, you READ right, I mistyped RED. Edited now.

 

[Happysniper1]

BTW, what is the statute of limitations on this?

I can get you the info on the Walmart in question, and the date and time it happened (in 2004), and maybe you can arrange for me to be arrested (good luck with that) and we'll see what happens in court.

What say you?

 

[Happysniper1]

There are Tribal lands in Arizona. Major state and Federal roads go right through them. Once you cross onto Tribal land, you may not even know that you are, you have to abide by tribal law. Which means no firearms that are loaded and within arms reach. If stopped, you also have to tell the tribal officer immediately that you have a firearm and where it is. This is a misconception that many have. Arizona permits carry, but tribal doesnt. You just have to know where you are.

That's exactly what I thought, and exactly what I told the Member, because that is how it is here in Nevada.

He replied by saying outright that there are no restrictions in Arizona.

That's why I said "I know what I know".

Takes all kinds, I guess.

This belongs in a different thread, by the way.

 

[Happysniper1]

@Sarabian:

and to "slam them into the aisle" can and should send a person to jail

getting physical with someone when they have not presented any danger to you is not legal in any state I am aware of.

it is proven that you did this on purpose (not easy to prove) battery still holds.

but that you were justified in taking aggressive physical action against that person

Still battery so far (clarifications in other responses notwithstanding).

but based on what you said you committed battery

would have satisfied injury in this state and you could have been jailed on an A misdemeanor

I would have made the arrest. Have fun with the defense.

No, by repeated accusing me of committing the crime of battery, you are by implication saying I should then be under the criminal jsutice system.

And this,

Can't? Didn't think so.

Doesn't work, because some of us actually have other things that need to be done that require being offline, and cannot be at your constant beck and call.

Do you still want to continue this?