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So reading online I found that in ohio you can not have jhp for your ccw ammo, is there other states likr that? A buddy of mine transports wholesale diamonds and alternates fmj then jhp the fmj etc, what do you guys carry?
 

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Hornady Critical Defense. In all 3 of my handguns. That is an interesting fact to know about Ohio, I come up every year and this year I have my CCW, I know we have recopricity with Ohio but have never seen that mentioned . I may have to change my Ammo for Ohio?
 

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I knew this would happen but not the route it has taken starting with Ohio, JHP is a nasty round and made to not just stop the threat but do it in a excessive manner. JMO
 

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Because 2 Are Better Then 1
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Don't most people use JHP also to stop over penetration. A FMJ might result in a pass through that may hit someone else?
 

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I live in Ohio and this is the first I've heard of that...maybe I'll find something new out at my CHL class on saturday
 

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Don't most people use JHP also to stop over penetration. A FMJ might result in a pass through that may hit someone else?
I cant find the thread on it but there was a thread on here that a cop shot a dude 20 times with the Winchester Rxt's and after the last shoot it still took the bad guy a few minutes to die. 2 shoots were dead center mass.

I rather have over penetration instead of not enough penetration. That is why I have one mag loaded with Remington Golden Sabers and one mag loaded with Winchester white box ammo in .45 acp.
 

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Load Bearing Wall
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I cant find the thread on it but there was a thread on here that a cop shot a dude 20 times with the Winchester Rxt's and after the last shoot it still took the bad guy a few minutes to die. 2 shoots were dead center mass.

I rather have over penetration instead of not enough penetration. That is why I have one mag loaded with Remington Golden Sabers and one mag loaded with Winchester white box ammo in .45 acp.


I haven't gotten around to the over penetration issue, still trying to figure out what to do about those pesky misses. Just being realistic about runnin' & gunnin'.
 

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GrassHopper
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I use jhp ammo because it expels all it's energy into the target. My aim is to stop the threat and fmj rounds are liable to pass right through and not cause enough shock, trauma, and punch to knock the target down. The military uses fmj because of the Geneva convention, the logic being it leaves cleaner wounds which are less likely to kill or cause infection.
 

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I haven't gotten around to the over penetration issue, still trying to figure out what to do about those pesky misses. Just being realistic about runnin' & gunnin'.
lol true! If you miss, it wont matter what rounds you are shooting.
 

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blackwolffcf said:
I use jhp ammo because it expels all it's energy into the target. My aim is to stop the threat and fmj rounds are liable to pass right through and not cause enough shock, trauma, and punch to knock the target down. The military uses fmj because of the Geneva convention, the logic being it leaves cleaner wounds which are less likely to kill or cause infection.
I did not know this... Learned something new
 

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Support Gunner said:
I cant find the thread on it but there was a thread on here that a cop shot a dude 20 times with the Winchester Rxt's and after the last shoot it still took the bad guy a few minutes to die. 2 shoots were dead center mass.

I rather have over penetration instead of not enough penetration. That is why I have one mag loaded with Remington Golden Sabers and one mag loaded with Winchester white box ammo in .45 acp.
That guy had to be hopped up on something...
 

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I could find no law prohibiting JHP ammo in Ohio. Sounds like a common myth cuz the question gets asked a lot on the net.
 

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That guy had to be hopped up on something...
In that case he was, but being high is not a requirement for fighting through mortal wounds, it just takes the right mindset.

In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout this is clearly evident. Niether suspect was on any drugs or alcohol, but continued to fight for several minutes after receiving multiple gun shot wounds. This led the FBI to the 10mm as they wanted something that penetrated deeper to assure vital organs were stuck.

In the case of SC Trooper Mark Coates, he shot a suspect 5 times in the chest with a 357 JHPs at nearly point blank range. The suspect was drunk I believe, but lived, and in fact killed Trooper Coates with a 22lr pistol shot the slipped by his vest under his armpit and hit his heart. Another case of mindset keeping the suspect in the fight when he seemingly should have laid down and died. Also another case of penetration trumping expansion.
 

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In that case he was, but being high is not a requirement for fighting through mortal wounds, it just takes the right mindset.

In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout this is clearly evident. Niether suspect was on any drugs or alcohol, but continued to fight for several minutes after receiving multiple gun shot wounds. This led the FBI to the 10mm as they wanted something that penetrated deeper to assure vital organs were stuck.

In the case of SC Trooper Mark Coates, he shot a suspect 5 times in the chest with a 357 JHPs at nearly point blank range. The suspect was drunk I believe, but lived, and in fact killed Trooper Coates with a 22lr pistol shot the slipped by his vest under his armpit and hit his heart. Another case of mindset keeping the suspect in the fight when he seemingly should have laid down and died. Also another case of penetration trumping expansion.

Yea I remember you saying on that thread that regardless what you use, it is all about having the warrior mind frame.
 

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Load Bearing Wall
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I did not know this... Learned something new

It was adopted to the accords a long time ago, before wound ballistics became a field of it's own, and back when .30 Ball or FMJ was the caliber of choice. The accords main goal is to limit war, and lessen needless killing. The logic in wounding over killing is simple, if a combatant is wounded it takes two unwounded soldiers to tend to him, and carry him from the field to get medical attention. So, if 2/3 of the soldiers are required to quit the fight to care for the 1/3 that are wounded, there's no one left to fight. It doesn't work that way exactly, but that's the principal behind favoring things that wound, over things that kill.

That's the theory behind it anyway. In practice it works a bit different. A high powered .30 cal rifle bullet actually swaps ends as it passes though the human body, and if it doesn't hit a bone & deflect, it usually exits backwards, or sideways. It's the shape that does it, the back tries to catch up with the front because the front is trying to stop, and the mass at the rear wants to keep on going. Physics wins.

If .223 hits anything going through, it just takes off in a whole different direction. So it can bounce around inside for quite awhile, and sometimes never even exit. Not what the Geneva folks had in mind, but it is what it is.

Pistol bullet ballistics are totally different of course, shaped different, & travelling much slower changes everything.
 

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GrassHopper
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Sw10mm said:
So whats better jhp or fmj? Or is it 6 of one half dozen of another
It's a personal opinion. I advocate carrying any american made JHP from a major manufacturer, I carry Hornady fpd tap.
 

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"The Sarge"
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JHP is the more effective bullet design in stopping the bad guy in a justified lethal force encounter. JHP rounds are totally embraced by the LE community. Modern bullet designs, such as the Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T, Speer Gold Dot, and Remington Golden Saber, were all designed for LE and yield adequate penetration and good expansion. The four I mentioned are the only bullet designs I would carry, with the HST being first choice. Your primary concern is to stop the actions of the attacker and a lot that happens is beyond your control. One of the few things you have direct control over is the choice of a quality pistol and quality ammo. Bill
 
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