Firing under the water

Discussion in 'Glock Forum' started by MikeV826, Mar 21, 2012.

  1. MikeV826

    MikeV826 New Member

    Ok, so this is pretty random but I saw a few videos yesterday of people firing Glocks under the water. Now we've all seen those expansion tests where they shoot a hollow point into a barrel of water or some water jugs and the round opens up.

    So the question is, if you fired a hollow point with the weapon submerged, would the round begin to expand while still in the barrel? Id imagine this wouldn't be good lol.

    I don't have any plans of getting into an underwater shoot out. I'm just curious
     
  2. sawfiler

    sawfiler New Member

    where could it expand to inside the barrel?
     

  3. MikeV826

    MikeV826 New Member

    Couldn't it expand enough to lodge itself inside the barrel? Especially because of how much the water slows the bullet down. It would become an instant barrel obstruction as soon as its fired wouldn't it?
     
  4. sawfiler

    sawfiler New Member

    I don't know your getting above my pay grade maybe someone else can weigh in on this. I remember seeing on G&A TV a few years back where they stuck a bullet in a S&W .357 mag. on purpose and fired another round with no apparent damage. no way I would try it though.
     
  5. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

    13,460
    6
    Curiously, I myself was wondering the same thing some time back.

    I could not find any information at all anywhere to answer if the fluid cavity causes the bullet to expand in the bore.

    The only info I could find was that in all cases the bullet did exit the muzzle.

    If you can find more detailed info, please post it for other curious minds.

    Cheers!
     
  6. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Sponsor Lifetime Supporting Member

    I would think the pressure would be the same in the gun ( before it is fired ) and

    outside the gun...same as it would be fired above water. Then the trigger is pulled and the

    bullet is put under the pressure of the gases and exits the barrel. But all in all, the pressures

    both in and outside the gun are the same before ignition. No ?!
     
  7. wrpNYFL

    wrpNYFL Premium Member Lifetime Supporting Member

    The way I see it, the density of the water is greater than air, so the hollow point should begin to expand immediately. But, I have no practical experience. I would just imagine that pressure inside the gun and outside would be irrelevant.
     
  8. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Sponsor Lifetime Supporting Member

    I knew I shouldn't have said anything...

    How do you figure that ?!...the pressures being the same ( whether it be above or below water)...acting on the firearm and bullet contained within...the only thing that would change on the bullet would be the pressures exerted by the expanding gases after ignition.

    (And...BTW...maritine spring cups are required to pull this stunt off effectively...)

    I'm not a physics major...but I do know that much...;)

    NOTE: The Glock Forum does not endorse this type of endeavor...this thread is for entertainment and discussion only !!
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
  9. I would think that the change in pressure form air to water is what causes the expansion. If the round starts under water... its just going to run slower, the pressure wont change so the round will stay in tact.
     
  10. the_mule

    the_mule New Member

    295
    0
    I'm going to try this with my own Glock using my friends above ground pool. I will make a video, and share the results!

    Ah...just kidding.
     
  11. glocknloaded

    glocknloaded Click Click Boom Supporter

    45,268
    18
    I was reading this and was getting excited until.......
     
  12. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Sponsor Lifetime Supporting Member

    Glock FAQ...

    Can I fire my Glock underwater?


    [​IMG]
    Just about any handgun will fire underwater -- at least once. :)

    However, firing underwater is NOT recommended because it can have devastating effects on the pistol and the shooter -- a potentially dangerous activity that should only be utilized by trained personnel wearing proper equipment for protection against potential pressure wave effects of underwater detonation. The shock/pressure waves in water can really damage internal organs (ever heard of lithotripsy?). Shooting a pistol underwater can lead to property damage, serious bodily injury or even death.

    NOTE: Glock, Inc., & TGSCOM, Inc specifically disclaims any and all liability from anyone performing or attempting to perform underwater firing with a Glock pistol -- you do so at your own risk.

    The Glock 17 may be equipped with an optional set of maritime spring cups for use in water environments. Maritime spring cups are not intended for submerged firing, but for surface use by special ops teams who operate in and around water. The maritime spring cups are two small parts within the firing pin assembly and are not included on any Model 17 sold by Glock (civilians can only get them through 3rd parties). They insure that water can pass by the firing pin within the firing pin channel, thus preventing the creation of hydraulic force within the firing pin channel -- which would slow the firing pin down, causing light primer strikes. With the special cups, the action will cycle reliably while submersed, if a little bit slower. NATO specification ammunition (such as Winchester's Ranger RA9124N) with waterproof sealed primers and case mouths is recommended.
    Although you may install the maritime spring cups on any Glock model, *only* the Glock 17 was designed and intended to use the modified spring cups for aquatic firing -- and only then using 9mm ball ammunition to remain within acceptable pressure limits. The foolhardy who insist on living dangerously must keep several things in mind: The Glock 17 must be fully submersed underwater. There must not be any air left within the pistol as the muzzle is pointed towards the surface of the water after submersion to allow the air in the barrel to escape. Use only full metal jacket, ball-type ammunition because the water within the barrel can spread a hollow point out within the barrel upon firing. This increases the bearing surface of the bullet to the barrel and could catastrophically increase pressures. Even if the barrel doesn't burst, the expanded bullet would get even bigger upon exiting into the water and would slow down very quickly while tumbling. Accuracy would be terrible.

    The marinized Glock 17 is primarily for use by various Special Warfare units operating in aquatic environments. At least one specialized Scuba diving group regularly uses G17's to dispatch sharks where they dive. The Glock 17 using NATO specification ball ammunition will completely penetrate a minimum of one 1/2" pine board at a distance of ten feet from the muzzle when fired underwater.

    Trained personnel who use Glocks underwater know they must obey several rules:

    1) use only a Glock Model 17 with amphibious spring cups (reliability issue);
    2) use only 9mm FMJ subsonic, sealed primer ammo;
    3) completely immerse the pistol and get *all* the air out of the barrel;
    4) wear protective ear plugs, gloves, wet suit, face mask, etc.;
    5) do not fire near solid objects or in enclosed spaces to prevent return
    concussion.

    However, any Glock -- even those not equipped with maritime spring cups -- will normally fire while submersed underwater. But doing so may generate excessive internal pressure and may cause the pistol to literally blow up. This is especially true with the use of high-pressure rounds (such as the .40 S&W/357 SIG) or hollow-point bullets.

    I recall a reported incident where a Glockster on a boating holiday decided to show some friends how his Glock would fire underwater (because Tommy Lee Jones said so in the movies). He stuck his hand overboard, pulled the trigger and came back with a bunch of shredded plastic and a badly injured hand.

    Another reported case was the Glockster who decided to try out his Glock 23 .40 S&W in the swimming pool after seeing pictures of Glocks being fired underwater on the web. He was totally submerged, with the gun, as he fired at a piece of wood on the bottom of his pool. The Glock did fire, the .40 S&W FMJ round left the barrel and went into the wood. The chamber also exploded and implanted shrapnel into his leg. Thinking that the water would muffle the blast, he did not wear hearing protection (the blast is actually about 4 times louder underwater). He is now mostly deaf in one ear and hears high-pitched tones most of his waking life.

    As you can see, firing a pistol underwater is a *very* dangerous endeavor.

    Several things could happen:

    1) the firing pin may be slowed enough to not detonate the primer
    (without the maritime spring cups)
    2) the pistol could blow up in your hand;
    3) the concussion could damage ears, eyes or internal organs;
    4) the bullet may not go where you intend it to.

    Even if you have the right equipment, know what you're doing and follow the rules -- the risks for underwater firing are minimized -- but not eliminated. Your pistol's barrel could be affected by water obstruction and your body by damaging concussion. By using hollow point bullets (water may cause the bullet to expand in the barrel), high pressure ammo, etc. -- you're asking for an underwater kaBoom! It you fire near solid or hard objects, the bouncing concussion can cause extensive, perhaps even fatal external/internal tissue injury. Why risk it? [JT]

    Here are some pics from [G29 Man] shooting his G26 underwater.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  13. :confused::confused::confused:

    Why is this even being discussed or left for viewing? I can see it now.......newb with new glock, "hold my beer and watch this"............:(
     
  14. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Sponsor Lifetime Supporting Member

    1st amendment...Warnings and disclaimers have been posted
     
  15. wrpNYFL

    wrpNYFL Premium Member Lifetime Supporting Member

    I figure that the pressure doesn't expand the hollow point. The force into the hollow area does. That force is caused by the forward motion of the bullet and the friction caused by the solid body that it hits. The water would act like a solid body, expanding the point. The water around it will not hold it together.
     
  16. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Sponsor Lifetime Supporting Member

    Good point...I concede !
     
  17. rivalarrival

    rivalarrival Are we there yet?

    I'd like to see it happen in "mythbuster" safety conditions. My thinking is that it depends on the dimensions of the convex portion of the tip of the bullet, and the dimensions of the concave portion.

    In the attached image, I think that if A = 2B, the bullet isn't going to deform at all. If A<2B, the point will close up in the barrel. If A>2B, the point will open up inside the barrel.

    As soon as the bullet leaves the barrel, I would expect the pressure applied to the nose in the red area would be less than the pressure applied to the hollow, causing the bullet to expand. The barrel would no longer be holding pressure in the red area as the bullet traveled. However, as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel, I think it's going to flip end-over-end for the same reason a dart would if you threw it backwards - the base of the bullet is denser than the nose.

    I think that unless A is very small relative to 2B, to the point that the bullet collapses completely before it leaves the barrel, whatever bullet you pick up afterwards is going to show signs of expansion; whether it expands before it leaves the barrel or immediately after it exits.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
  18. wrpNYFL

    wrpNYFL Premium Member Lifetime Supporting Member

    I got nothin'...
     
  19. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Sponsor Lifetime Supporting Member

    That was funny...:D ^^^
     
  20. iGlock

    iGlock Lead Farmer

    Simple, dont use jhps under water just your fmjs :) lol