Failing a CCW class.

Discussion in 'Conceal & Open Carry' started by Deuce, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Deuce

    Deuce Because 2 Are Better Then 1

    Just would like to hear some stories from CCW teachers that had to fail a student. What happend?
     
  2. iGlock

    iGlock Lead Farmer

    When i took my ccw class, our instructor told us about a woman who took a class and when it was time for the live fire, she apparently couldnt take her finger off the trigger so she ended up unloadeding the whole mag, even shot the covers on top where it provides shade at the outdoor ranges.
     

  3. Deuce

    Deuce Because 2 Are Better Then 1

    Glad I was not on that range!
     
  4. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

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    I have failed several students in the past, for a number of reasons, such as the following (in decreasing order of frequency):

    1. Continued or constantly repeated refusal to follow safety regulations (such as not removing finger off trigger when not on target, constantly handling firearm during a target break with personnel downrage servicing targets, and not maintaining safe muzzle direction).

    2. Demonstrated inability to qualify in live fire qualifications due to refusal to listen and obey instructor's directions on stance, grip, sight alignment and trigger control. We allow students to return for qualifications, and have actually had people continue to miss the target regardless of what we try to teach them, simply because they do not listen. The course of fire requires 30 rounds for semiautos and 25 rounds for revolvers hitting an 8-inch target in center body mass on silhouettes at ONLY 21 feet! Most retakers eventually learn, but some just simply refuse to listen, and these people are just plain unsafe with a firearm.

    3. Display of racial prejudice. Some students have been heard to make racist comments either in class or at the range.

    4. Inability to operate their firearm. Some students have malfunctioning firearms, and are unable to qualify at the range. We give them a chance to have their firearm looked at by a gunsmith of their choosing, and come back when their gun is repaired to make an attempt to qualify. If they do not return, they did not complete the class requirements and they do not get their applications signed-off. *NOTE* since 1 July 2011, Nevada changed the requirements for live fire qualifications, so students are able to shoot ANY semiauto and/or revolver in order to qualify to carry ANY semiauto or revolver....previously, the quals were make-model-and-caliber specific for semiautos, and if they didn't (or couldn't) shoot it, it does not go on their permit and they are not authorized to carry it.

    5. Demonstrated inablility to understand the legal concepts, rules and regulations required that govern the use of deadly force, as demonstrated by failing the written exam. We allow students to retake the exam, which is a standardized exam Statewide. Although strictly speaking everybody can pass the test, some people simply do not understand the concepts (regardless of what language we use to communicate with them). The test is strictly speaking not a pass/fail, but we discuss the questions and answers after they have answered their tests, so that they understand why this is the right answer and not that. If it still does not sink in, we cannot give them a sign-off.

    6. Having a ND in spite of 1:2 instructor to student ratio 100% of the time on range. We have not had any serious incidents (meaning all NDs we ever had from students in 15 years' plus of doing this and me personally for 10 years' of doing this were all ones that launched rounds downrange when the shooter was not ready to fire, usually with first-timers). In this case, Negligent Discharge meaning "unaimed fire".

    7. We did have one instance where the student refused to show his driver's license for the class paperwork (we are required to fill in the names and addresses as they are shown on the student's driver's license or other government-issued ID). Since we had no way of knowing who this person really was, they got their money back and no sign-off.

    As a side-note, we have had students who did not have the financial capability to pay for the class and get the sign-off, and we work with them. We also offer the first half of the class (handgun basics and mechanics of making an aimed shot) for free for students who want to learn how to shoot but do not want to pursue a CCW permit application.

    While our class schedules are fixed, we also accomodate private classes for individuals and groups at a schedule of their convenience, to accomodate their scheduling needs.

    We try to bend over backwards at all times to accomodate our student's group or individual needs, but we will never bend the rules (or the laws) to appove them for a CCW application if they are either dangerous with a gun, display a consistently unsafe attitude towards guns, or display an unsafe (or biased) attitude towards other races or seriously espouse the overthrow of the government...snide comments are fine, but consistently making remarks that would arouse the attention of the Secret Service is not something we tolerate or allow in our classes.
     
  5. leb686

    leb686 New Member

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    Damn, it sounds like you've seen your fair share of dumb asses. You just need to pistol whip them into shape!
     
  6. ColoConsrvCowboy

    ColoConsrvCowboy New Member

    Happysniper1:

    This might be the wrong place to ask this, but since you did such a bang-up job of explaining the process of getting a CCW or being declined, I thought I'd ask.

    I have been considering getting a CCW, but my spouse (who is even more paranoid than I am...) is concerned that the very act of doing so puts you "on a list" -- in other words, that if gun control ever hits, those who are registered to carry would be the first people to have their firearms taken from them since the local authorities know that you have firearms.

    Any comments you can provide would be greatly appreciate,

    Frank
     
  7. cvitter

    cvitter New Member

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    Not Happysniper however... every time your name is submitted to NICS you are on a list so to speak. I don't know that it is possible to legally buy a gun these days without ending up on a list. Getting your CCW is just another list to get added to... :)
     
  8. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

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    @ColoConsrvCowboy:

    (Dang! That's a long username! :p)

    To answer your question: yes, it puts you on a list. If there is ever an organized (although totally unconstitutional and therefore illegal) confiscation of firearms, the police (or more likely the ATF and/or National Guard) will come knocking to ask about your guns. In NV, we are no longer required to list our handguns on the permit, and since a search and seizure order MUST specify what is being seized, they cannot confiscate what is not on the list....does that make sense?

    To add to what CVitter said, the NICS check also puts you on a list for firearm/s purchased, and this is more specific than the CCW info, and is keyed to your SSN (I have a very common name, so I always put my SSN on the form). This list will show what specific guns you have purchased from and FFL, by make, model, caliber, and serial number.

    That being the case, I am so glad that I live in a state where face-to-face firearm sales is legal without paperwork. If someone comes knocking to see the 106 AR15 lower receivers I have bought over the years (yes, I have built 106 of them), I can tell them that I have sold them all. They may search the house, but if they cannot find it then they will just go away. Same for any other firearms I have bought or sold over the years.

    With the exception of Clark County (the Greater Las Vegas area, including the cities of North Las Vegas, Hendersen, and Boulder), there is no firearms registration requirement in Nevada. Unlike in other states. That is another list, and is more precise than the NICS info or the CCW permit info.

    Now, after all that, consider this: they (the Gov't) will have to have a constitutional convention to revise the Constitution and delete or reword the 2nd Amendment in order to ban guns in the hands of civilians, OR they (certain "personalities" in the Gov't) can control the Supreme Court (whose job it is to consider and rule on constitutional matters as pertains to laws), OR a state of National Calamity (or State Calamity) must exist for the President (or State Governor) to impose Martial Law, which is basically a way of throwing the Bill of Rights out the window as though it doesn't exist. If any of these conditions exist, you can be assured that the Zombies are now Apocalypting, and therefore obeyance of the law should come in second place to your own personal survival, in my opinion (and I admit, it is an arguable issue, but this thread is not the place for it).

    NOW, on the other side of the coin, consider this (and these apply to Nevada): having a CCW permit means that you, as a civilian, have elected to learn the laws governing firearms, possession and transport thereof, and have attended classes (and passed a written exam) to show you know and understand those laws, and have demonstrated the ability to shoot accurately, and have received training in weapon retention and takedown techniques...all of this, voluntarily and at your own expense. In the eyes of Law Enforcement, you are a more credible witness, complainant, or plain citizen, than someone who does not have a CCW permit. Does that make sense? I have received so much respect from LEOs of different agencies in NV since I got my first permit over a decade ago. When I call the police, they know who I am (and therefore know I am not making a crank call or a false report). Does that make sense?

    Now, I know ZIP about the laws in Colorado, so I do not know what the atmosphere is like there LEO vs CCW. This is something you would have to check for yourself. Is it legal there to buy a gun from a private individual (not a business) and not have paperwork on it, or are you required to register firearms? If registration is required, worrying about getting on a list due to CCW permit app or approval is moot, you are already on a list.

    Not very helpful, I know, but it's the best I got for 'ya.


    My views and opinions do not necessarily reflect those of Glock Forum, its management, its owners or affiliates.

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  9. ROYALE-W-CHEESE

    ROYALE-W-CHEESE New Member

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    Great info, Happy. What would you estimate is the percentage of fails for CCW in your experience? And, if you're willing to venture a more elaborate guess, what is the percentage for each of the reasons you listed?

    I took my first NRA course this past weekend (Basic Pistol) and was surprised at how many questionable students there were. By this I mean, physical and/or mental inability to safely handle firearms after instruction and brief range time (eg: muzzle sweeps, finger constantly on trigger, leaving one in the chamber, not remembering to properly "show clear", even one instance of partially peeping down the muzzle, etc). While I realize that the course is intended for beginners, the 50% unsafe rate was alarming to me. Granted, there were only 10 students.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  10. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

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    @Royale:

    The failure rate is surprisingly small. Our classes are typically 10-25 persons, every other Saturday of the month, and in all of last year (for example), no more than perhaps a dozen or so failed. Like I said, we try very hard to teach the students and help them pass, even to the point of arranging additional training sessions (classroom and/or range) at no additional expense to them. We are not, however, a diploma mill that just cranks out training certificates.

    It is interesting to note that in the decade or so since I first started teaching CCW classes, we have had a grand total of 5 students actually use their training to protect themselves in an attack or home invasion, and in none of the cases were the gunshots fatal.
     
  11. ColoConsrvCowboy

    ColoConsrvCowboy New Member

    Happysniper1 --

    Thanks for a well-written and logical response. The new local gun shop has a great indoor range and instructors who have been around awhile, and I'll be signing up soon.

    Frank
     
  12. Deuce

    Deuce Because 2 Are Better Then 1

    All I can say is "Wow" Any others?
     
  13. Happysniper1

    Happysniper1 New Member

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