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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am primarily a backwoods kind of guy, camping, fly fishing, bow hunting etc. and the answer I'm looking for is which of my Glockies is best suited as an everyday woods carry pistol sufficient for deer hunting backup.

Please...I have 1/2 a century as a pistol hunter and need no lectures on caliber basics and Internet wisdom experiences. I have taken game in most hunting suitable calibers from .357 mag. through .454 Casull plus various Contenders in rifle loads. I understand the nuances.

So lets stick to the specifics of my situation. Constant carry, usually under parka, jacket, fishing vest or chest waders and a smaller/lighter gun is needed. This gun may never actually get used for it's intended purpose, so no I'm not going to buy another (mdl 40 10mm) just for this use. Instead, which of my existing Glocks is best suited to add an extended length barrel (necessary to make my State's 5 1/2" barrel restriction for a hunting pistol)?

I can get hot .357s, .40s or .45s that close in on 500 FPE (or load .45 Supers that nudge the 10mm)...but energy/performance/penetration data is all geared to humanoids and short range, and 500fpe is pretty marginal as a deer shooter.

What I suspect is that as shot distances get longer the fatter/heavier bullets slow and energy drops off quickly, the .357 will start to deliver better results in comparison.

Will it? Does good support data exist?

Does the .357 SIG's speed and penetration (with the proper bullet) make it the better Glock to deliver power out in the 75 yard + range?
 

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Depends on where you’re hunting deer. An Iowa whitetail is different than one in NC. Any of your options should work for your stated purpose, as far as deer are concerned, with good shot placement taken at reasonable ranges. Other factors to consider, such as predators (bear?) would change my opinion and I would lean toward the .45 Super if you are shooting Supers reliably. I carry and hunt with a 45colt with hand loads. I find it more than adequate, but I wouldn’t want less in bear country.. My friend uses a Glock .357Sig and does fine with it too.

longer shots with heavier bullets still have high potential for penetration. Smaller bullets maintain velocity longer, but lose energy faster when met with resistance and may not penetrate as far, even at a higher velocity (lots of factors though).
 

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I’ve been putting down deer with my issued Glock 31 for over ten years with no issues. One round to the noggin and done. I don’t hunt but at a recent course with the swat guys I was tearing up their steel plates at distance with my Glock 31.
 

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I know you didn’t want a lecture and that you understand the nuance, but you asked more than one question and on my first response the actual question was a bit unclear to me. I would add the extra length to the 45 if my loads were reaching the data you’ve stated. My other friend said he thinks that the sig would have more to gain in speed, but we both agreed the larger bullet pushing more velocity and 500fpe would be a better penetrator. No data for you though, I apologize.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes, I was less than clear. I Let me cut to the end.

I've a favorite frame/trigger that began life as a gen3 22 now with a cut down to g23 grip. And I have a sort-of-orphan G35 upper. Thats an easier setup to fiddle with than longer barrel conversions of my other Glocks since all I need with the 35 slide is a threaded barrel to make a legal length gun. Also easy to choose/find one in .40 or .357.

I recently watched a video of a fellow shooting cinder blocks at distance and it appeared to me that the .357 was significantly out performing the .40 that paper ballistics don't reveal. I can and have regularly taken larger "up North" deer out to 100 yards and further with sixgun calibers and have seen big differences in stopping power versus the muzzle energy figures handgunners pour over.

So, is my suspicion that the .357 retains more energy at distance and makes a better pick as a woods carry gun correct?
 

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I’d have to do some testing to know for sure about the energy, and I don’t own a .40, but I’ve used plenty and, sticking inside your parameters, I would favor the .357sig and believe it would have more energy. I’d take the 357 between the two as a woods gun.
 

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We have tested and compared .357Sig, 10mm .40, .45 in barrier penetration (auto glass, cinder blocks, wood) and the .357 did out perform the .40. I apologize for not having any recorded data, so this is purely anecdotal.
 

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I'm thinking I'd choose the .40 bullet in the 165gn Gold Dot at around 1100+ over the 125gn commonly loaded in the .357 Sig at about 1300fps for deer size game. Neither one would be optimal, but I would have more confidence in the .40. The .45 Super or .460 Rowland would trump them both for larger critter defense. Were I in your shoes, the Franken 35 in .40 with good hand loads woul b my choice.
 

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To the best of my knowledge, very simply stated, all else being equal, penetration is proportional to momentum/cross-section (M/d^2).

The following simple comparison suggests that the 357 Sig may outperform the 40 S&W.

Font Material property Parallel Pattern Rectangle


Best regards,

Bob
 

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Yes, I was less than clear. I Let me cut to the end.

I've a favorite frame/trigger that began life as a.....

So, is my suspicion that the .357 retains more energy at distance and makes a better pick as a woods carry gun correct?
Let me cut to the end in my opinion...with quality rounds like Underwood or Buffalo Bore ammo with Hornady XTP or Lehigh Extreme Penetrators, I don’t think it matters much.

The ultimate choice would depend on the gun/round you can most reliably put bullets into a 4” circle at the given hunting distance.

My $0.02...
 
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I am primarily a backwoods kind of guy, camping, fly fishing, bow hunting etc. and the answer I'm looking for is which of my Glockies is best suited as an everyday woods carry pistol sufficient for deer hunting backup.

Please...I have 1/2 a century as a pistol hunter and need no lectures on caliber basics and Internet wisdom experiences. I have taken game in most hunting suitable calibers from .357 mag. through .454 Casull plus various Contenders in rifle loads. I understand the nuances.

So lets stick to the specifics of my situation. Constant carry, usually under parka, jacket, fishing vest or chest waders and a smaller/lighter gun is needed. This gun may never actually get used for it's intended purpose, so no I'm not going to buy another (mdl 40 10mm) just for this use. Instead, which of my existing Glocks is best suited to add an extended length barrel (necessary to make my State's 5 1/2" barrel restriction for a hunting pistol)?

I can get hot .357s, .40s or .45s that close in on 500 FPE (or load .45 Supers that nudge the 10mm)...but energy/performance/penetration data is all geared to humanoids and short range, and 500fpe is pretty marginal as a deer shooter.

What I suspect is that as shot distances get longer the fatter/heavier bullets slow and energy drops off quickly, the .357 will start to deliver better results in comparison.

Will it? Does good support data exist?

Does the .357 SIG's speed and penetration (with the proper bullet) make it the better Glock to deliver power out in the 75 yard + range?
I can't comment on the .357 sig as bottle neck pistol rounds are not allowed to hunt deer with in my hunting area.

I pretty well only hunt whitetails so that is all I can comment on.

Whitetails kill easily so any of the guns/rounds that you mention will do the job. A good double lung hit will usually keep the animal within 30 yards of the hit.

I have killed a number of whitetail deer with a pistol or revolver including the .40, .45, .357 mag, 41mag, .44mag, 45LC, & 10mm. (personally the 45LC is my favorite)

I don't use self defense type hollow point bullets as they expand too quickly & easily. Oh they will usually kill OK with a good double lung or heart hit. The problem is no pass through. With a perfect hit it doesn't matter but with single lung or gut hit the lack of pass through means a poor to non existent blood trail.

I like hard cast lead bullets for a pistol round as I get the pass throughs, good muscle bone penetration if a shoulder is hit. Plus the hardcast bullet will double as a bear round if absolutely needed.

Problem is not a lot of auto pistols will reliably feed hardcast bullets without throating work
 

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I hit a small wild hog under #100 about 25 yards with a .357 Sig KKM barrel in a Glock 35, it took half a step and dropped, I was surprise of the killing power on the .357 Sig or I just got lucky or the hog unlucky lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I appreciate the comments, thanks. For the simple reason that the Glock trigger (or for that matter most any auto with the exception of a well tuned 1911) isn't the best of picks as a primary hunting pistol since precision shot placement with such triggers is more difficult. But for easy packing "just in case" rifle backup, there is a niche.

Armchair wisdom hints that the usual 125 gr. .357, while humanoid effective, may not be a good deer load. But...big fat bullets that deliver energy due to mass vs. speed also shed velocity quicker than lighter and faster slugs. So theoretically a faster bullet that retains velocity over longer distance hunting range should hit harder way out there than a big bullet that has slowed down more. My own incidental experience having taken a few deer out past 100 yards with a .44 revolver and the standard 240 gr. bullet showed puny energy remaining That ong ago caused me to switch to heavier bullet long range loads. Slower to start, but slows down slower too so retaining more impact energy.

Add to that the belief that full bullet pass through is desirable in a hunting load and that the .357 SIG is cited as a better penetrating caliber, and not being a good deer pick because the bullet isn't heavy enough doesn't follow.

So as others report, we don't have any measurable data to go from, just incidental user experience. The .357 at the muzzle generates as much as 20% more energy than a typical .40/.45 and has a bullet weight that sheds speed more slowly. So...short of the 10mm or .45 Super, of the smaller frame calibers, the .357 might have the power advantage over the other options. But the supporting data isn't out there to confirm it.

Rick
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I wanted to add that there is a factor at play here that hardly ever get mentioned. Specifically we cannot make any direct comparisons of performance between human "stopping power" and hunting effectiveness.

Unless drugged or otherwise in a fanatical mindset, a human is self aware. He/she KNOWS he's been shot and will stop doing what it was to cause that to happen, and so increase chances of survival. A game animal hasn't the brain power to do the same. The critter shot only knows fight or flight and will do so until the body functions shut down. Thus even bullets doing lesser damage will almost always cause the bad person to quit, but not stop the deer from continuing to run.

R.
 

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To the best of my knowledge, very simply stated, all else being equal, penetration is proportional to momentum/cross-section (M/d^2).

The following simple comparison suggests that the 357 Sig may outperform the 40 S&W.

View attachment 152884

Best regards,

Bob
Except that deer's don't understand physics!!! And bears hate physics....and load noises.
 

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Except that deer's don't understand physics!!! And bears hate physics....and load noises.
That's okay. There are things that I dislike and don't understand, too.

Best regards,

Bob
 

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all forums should have a Dislike option also.
Hi, ca survivor!

I'm very sorry that you're frustrated with some of my posts and PM's.

I've tried to explain the bases of my observations, perceptions, and techniques which have puzzled you... and have asked for your input. Yet, I've received no meaningful response.

I truly wish to understand where I've 'missed the mark'... as I'm really interested in what's 'true', as opposed to 'being right', since 'being right' has no value if, in fact, I'm wrong.

So, if you'd be so kind as to 'enlighten' me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Best regards,

Bob
 
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