[pook]

This topic is about as used and abused as a Vegas hooker on Superbowl Sunday. But this is my first post to glockforum, so I thought I'd stir the pot a little and piss some people off. All in the name of a good old fashioned, respectful exchange of ideas.

I read glockforum's original thread on this subject. Its interesting the amount of guys who carry condition 1 and bash people who don't. Guys talking about: "if you're not hot, then you're carrying a club..yadda yadda"
"good luck, I'll be at your funeral telling you I told you so...yadda yadda"
"if you're not locked and loaded, then why own a gun..yadda yadda"

Honestly, that's a lot of bravado and chest pounding by guys telling COMPLETE STRANGERS how to carry a deadly weapon. Let me break it down for you.

I carry my gen4 G26 condition 1 in a good holster. Did I do that when I picked up my first pistol 10 years ago? HELL NO! I was condition 3 all day! And I should have been. 10 years ago, I had no business carrying a pistol with a chambered round.

Now 10 years later - I'm a member of my local firing range, train with several military and LEO's, and hit the range 2-3x/wk. I own several firearms and feel confident carrying condition 1. I train with a bunch of guys who are experts, and have taught me the correct ways to shoot, carry, and respect firearms.

However, there are PLENTY of people who own firearms that can't even hold their deadly weapon correctly. Let's be real...there's a ton of clumsy people out there. Hell, there are a ton of plain idiots out there. There are fools who don't respect a firearm and don't even know the 4 rules of gun safety. There are people who buy a gun and never practice with it. There are people who own a gun because it looks cool to them. There are a lot of people out there who are also insecure. Are you guys really gonna tell me that they should carry condition 1? You really want to sit next to that guy/girl on a bus, in the movie theater, or eating at McDonald's with your kids? Hell, Plaxico Dumbass nearly shot off his 3 favorite friends with an unlicensed Glock. You wanna be the guy he was standing next to?

There are plenty of responsible gun owners who are experienced enough to carry with one in the chamber. I'm down with that. If you're military, LEO, or a responsible firearms owner that is confident in their skills - then by all means, carry condition 1.

I know there are MANY MORE that shouldn't. If that person would rather carry condition 3, let them. If they feel the gun is safer in condition 3, let them. If they feel they can still rack the slide in time while carrying in condition 3, let them. If they're insecure about their experience carrying a pistol, by all means, I WANT those people to carry condition 3.

Honestly, there should be a new movement when the discussion of chambered carry comes up. If the guy doesn't want to, don't bash him for not doing it. Don't break out statistics, scenarios, or reasons why everyone should conceal carry condition 1. Because not EVERYONE should. Just let them carry condition 3. Its fine, I'd feel safer if they did. It'll be one less story in the news media about an inexperienced gun owner shooting himself in the leg with his own gun while getting out of his car. The press and anti-gun activists love using stories like that as fuel against people who lawfully exercise our right to keep and bear arms.

If you don't feel comfortable carrying condition 1, then don't. And NEVER feel the pressure in needing to.

 

[wsar10]

glocktalk is where you stir pots and piss ppl off, we came here to get away from that !

 

[pook]

glocktalk is where you stir pots and piss ppl off, we came here to get away from that !

HAHAHA! Indeed!

 

[Texcowboy]

glocktalk is where you stir pots and piss ppl off, we came here to get away from that !

My thoughts exactly !!!!!

 

[jfirecops]

glocktalk is where you stir pots and piss ppl off, we came here to get away from that !

That is why I stopped going over there, unless I'm in the right mood of course.

Question, this condition 1, 2 , 3 or whatever it is, who teaches that? I'm not bashing the technique, just curious who it is.

 

[wsar10]

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - furthermore known as "cocked and locked”, means a round is in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer down and no magazine is in the gun.

by; LtCol John Dean "Jeff" Cooper

originally applied to 1911, but can apply to any weapon

 

[jfirecops]

Thanks for the info, was that in Cooper's book or something he used at Gunsite?

 

[pook]

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - furthermore known as "cocked and locked”, means a round is in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer down and no magazine is in the gun.

by; LtCol John Dean "Jeff" Cooper

originally applied to 1911, but can apply to any weapon

I always enjoyed calling carrying a Glock with one in the chamber condition 1 and not condition 0....the biggest safety is always on....that goo of white creamy stuff between our ears

 

[CDR_Glock]

To the OP, Well Said.

My observation of people at the Rent/Shoot by the Hour range versus my gun club is that there are a lot of people who lack the responsibility, knowledge and training. I feel that the Concealed Weapons classes should emphasize lifelong learning regarding this process.

Even in my own class that I attended in Florida, scared me regarding the misconceptions with regards to questions asked from the crowd or even a comment or two by our instructor.

CONDITION OF CARRY SHOULD BE DETERMINED BY AN INDIVIDUAL AND HIS/HER LEVEL OF TRAINING.

It is the case that I have read why Israeli Carry is adopted in certain circles. Even well trained people have put a bullet into their thigh from Condition One in a Serpa or IWB holster. It happens. We are not infallible as Human Beings. If you think we are infallible, you are making a mistake.

In cases of some people, an external safety on a 1911 or a pistol that shoots DA on the first trigger pool may be an alternative option to the Striker Fire pistols in a CONDITION ONE carry.

 

[jonm61]

However, there are PLENTY of people who own firearms that can't even hold their deadly weapon correctly.

Hell, Plaxico Dumbass nearly shot off his 3 favorite friends with an unlicensed Glock.

If that person would rather carry condition 3, let them. If they feel the gun is safer in condition 3, let them. If they feel they can still rack the slide in time while carrying in condition 3, let them. If they're insecure about their experience carrying a pistol, by all means, I WANT those people to carry condition 3.

Because not EVERYONE should. Just let them carry condition 3. Its fine, I'd feel safer if they did. It'll be one less story in the news media about an inexperienced gun owner shooting himself in the leg with his own gun while getting out of his car. The press and anti-gun activists love using stories like that as fuel against people who lawfully exercise our right to keep and bear arms.

You don’t say where you’re from, but I’m guessing from the term “unlicensed” that it’s not a particularly gun friendly state?

I agree with you that there are plenty of inexperienced people who don’t know what they’re doing, don’t know the basics of gun safety and may be clumsy.

I agree with you that there are idiots and fools out there and people who don’t respect firearms as well. They may or may not be part of the last group.

Plaxico, or any other public figure as an example of gun safety, intelligence, experience, etc.? Even if he hadn’t been a moron with a gun, I still wouldn’t count him as an example for new owners to emulate.

I agree that everyone should do what they’re most comfortable with and if they really believe they can use the Israeli carry method, then more power to them; if they’re that insistent, then I encourage them to practice it. A LOT. I guarantee they won’t be able to draw from concealment, rack the slide and fire two shots in 1 ½ seconds, which can be accomplished with training and the gun in condition 1.

I disagree with you when you say not everyone should carry in condition 1. If you are not experienced enough, have not trained enough, to be competent in carrying in condition 1, then you need to train until you are. Because if you’re not trained enough to carry in condition 1 and you choose to carry in condition 3 instead, because of your lack of training or inexperience, then carrying in condition 3 is useless. If you are that incapable and are faced with a self defense scenario, carrying in condition 3 against an armed bad guy is, at best, going to cause you to lose your gun and at worst cause you to lose your life. If you’re not competent enough to carry in condition 1, then you need to focus on getting training and practicing until you are competent enough.

What you want people to do and how you’d feel about how they’d carry is irrelevant.

As far as an inexperienced person, aside from Plaxico, shooting themselves and the press being all over it, I haven’t seen one of those cases anywhere, that I can recall. So that must happen a lot and be made a really big deal of…

I do remember someone who was well experienced, carrying OWB in a Galco holster who had an issue with his Glock going off. It may have been in the news where he lived, I don’t recall, but I do remember that he requested that people share it far and wide as a warning about that holster, which had stretched, malformed, and stuck in the trigger guard of his gun. He failed to make sure the gun was fully holstered and he failed to check the condition of his gear, so it was not really the holster’s fault, but it was a good lesson nonetheless.

glocktalk is where you stir pots and piss ppl off, we came here to get away from that !

Ditto. I don’t mind a good discussion, but a first post announcing the intent to piss people off is a great way to introduce yourself to the community…

I always enjoyed calling carrying a Glock with one in the chamber condition 1 and not condition 0....the biggest safety is always on....that goo of white creamy stuff between our ears

I think you mean the grey, gelatinous stuff. The white creamy stuff is…never mind.

My observation of people at the Rent/Shoot by the Hour range versus my gun club is that there are a lot of people who lack the responsibility, knowledge and training. I feel that the Concealed Weapons classes should emphasize lifelong learning regarding this process.
Even in my own class that I attended in Florida, scared me regarding the misconceptions with regards to questions asked from the crowd or even a comment or two by our instructor.

CONDITION OF CARRY SHOULD BE DETERMINED BY AN INDIVIDUAL AND HIS/HER LEVEL OF TRAINING.

It is the case that I have read why Israeli Carry is adopted in certain circles. Even well trained people have put a bullet into their thigh from Condition One in a Serpa or IWB holster. It happens. We are not infallible as Human Beings. If you think we are infallible, you are making a mistake.

In cases of some people, an external safety on a 1911 or a pistol that shoots DA on the first trigger pool may be an alternative option to the Striker Fire pistols in a CONDITION ONE carry.

Well, what would you expect of people who are renting and shooting? If they don’t own a gun, I would hope that they are following the advice widely given on gun boards to go to the range and rent guns until you find the one that fits you best. At least they’re trying, but clearly they need training and advice. If they’re acting unsafely, then the employees of the range to need to be on top of it, or more experienced shooters nearby need to step up and give them some friendly tips. I’ve yet to find anyone who doesn’t appreciate that at the range.

I haven’t attended a CCW class like that. When I got my CWL in FL, my military training negated the class requirement. I have attended other classes that were geared towards newer shooters, most recently about 3 years ago, partly because I wanted to see what they were teaching and partly because I think any shooter can benefit from any level of training. Refreshers in the basics or learning the latest and greatest technique are never bad things, whether you’ve been shooting for 1 year or 50.

In that last class, which was taught by a retired Marine, I picked up a couple of tweaks to my stance, a couple of drills I’d never done before and I heard many things that I’ve known for well over a decade, but that I appreciated hearing again.

I also heard a few things that scared the hell out of me and that I felt the need to correct, like when a student asked if it was ok to fire a “warning shot” and the instructor said “yeah, you could do that”. We were discussing a scenario that was set in a parking lot in downtown Atlanta!

But, attending these classes and seeing things like that helps you, the students, the instructor and the shooting community in general.

Ultimately, people can do what they want. If they want to carry the slide in one pocket and the frame in another, that’s up to them. I’m not going to encourage them to do anything other than get enough training to be comfortable and competent in carrying in condition 1.

Another option for those who have Glocks and are really that afraid of carrying in condition 1, is to install a NY trigger spring, which I would consider a much better option than carrying in condition 3.

But that’s just me. I’ve carried in condition one from the first time I put a gun on, because that’s how I was trained.

 

[jem375]

When I was in the service on SP duty, it was mandatory to carry our 1911's in condition 3 and it worked out just fine. Bar fights came to a halt when you racked the slide on the 45 if need be. I also carried that way with my permit to carry for a year or so, but eventually went to conditon 1.

 

[Dustin WJ]

If you don't feel comfortable carrying condition 1, then don't. And NEVER feel the pressure in needing to.

I agree with this. Personally, I always carry with a round in the chamber and I strongly believe that that's the best way to carry. But, that's me. Some people don't agree with that and that's okay. It's a personal choice and one that should not be made for you by anyone else. Whatever method you feel comfortable with is the best method for you.

 

[fls348]

If your going to carry a gun, carry a loaded gun for god sake. There's no reason what-so-ever to carry one with an empty chamber. If someone is 'that clumsy' they shouldn't be carrying one in the first place, and yes, it is someone else's responsibility to tell them they're an idiot.

If they then insist on still carrying a gun and they shoot themselves in the meat and two veggies so be it...........

Some ppl have to learn by touching the stove!

 

[glockster86]

"people make mistakes glocks don't"

 

[ArizonaLawman]

Well....here is my two cents...

If you aren't "experienced enough to CARRY your gun with a round in the chamber"...then I would assert you are not QUALIFIED to carry a gun PERIOD.

We can all save time by assuming I am right, and agreeing with me now.

I have yet to see...in ALL my years as a cop and a police trainer...not one time...not EVER...a gun of any sort jump up from where is sat and start going off willy nilly.

I spent 23 years as a police officer, but my BEST friend is a neurologist...I learned the right way to perform neurological exams from him. That sounds JUST as dumb as when someone claims to have cops for "best friends" and learned how to shoot from them.

Get real training, and then the myths will drift away.

 

[squidjuice]

I think almost every gun forum has a discussion about this topic. I live in Florida and personally I hate the fact of how easy it is to get a CWP. I went with my buddy to take his at the Central Florida Gun / Riffle Show. When they went in to to there class it was like an hour or 2 long then went to "shoot" rounds. There was 1 person that was watching a line of like 8-10 people at a time and they just say set fire and all go off. Not only can you not see if they can handle the gun properly but also the target has like 100 shots in it already. So how do they even know if they can hit the target!!

I personally believe that if you are going to carry a gun you need to be knowledge enough to handle your gun and carry it safely. I hear about stories of people shooting them self all the time and I just wonder how retarded you have to be to achieve that. I carry a glock 27 and sometimes carry my Colt new agent 1911.

 

[MassiveDynamic]

I always OC and never chamber my firearm. I think if for some reason i need to draw, ill have time to chamber a round.

 

[jonm61]

I think almost every gun forum has a discussion about this topic. I live in Florida and personally I hate the fact of how easy it is to get a CWP. I went with my buddy to take his at the Central Florida Gun / Riffle Show. When they went in to to there class it was like an hour or 2 long then went to "shoot" rounds. There was 1 person that was watching a line of like 8-10 people at a time and they just say set fire and all go off. Not only can you not see if they can handle the gun properly but also the target has like 100 shots in it already. So how do they even know if they can hit the target!!

I personally believe that if you are going to carry a gun you need to be knowledge enough to handle your gun and carry it safely. I hear about stories of people shooting them self all the time and I just wonder how retarded you have to be to achieve that. I carry a glock 27 and sometimes carry my Colt new agent 1911.

If you think that's bad, you'd hate GA. No class and no picture. Paperwork, fingerprints and $.

I always OC and never chamber my firearm. I think if for some reason i need to draw, ill have time to chamber a round.

Good luck with that. I hope you practice a lot. If someone is coming at you with gun, they can point and shoot a lot faster than you can draw, rack the slide and bring your gun up.

 

[TimeKiller911]

I don't have anything to add here that hasn't already been said, but in case you've never seen this video; here it is.

Don't let your arrogance or level of training get in a race with the clock.

[ame]http://youtu.be/syxrpLbaEuY?hd=1[/ame]

 

[rivalarrival]

I disagree with you when you say not everyone should carry in condition 1. If you are not experienced enough, have not trained enough, to be competent in carrying in condition 1, then you need to train until you are. Because if you’re not trained enough to carry in condition 1 and you choose to carry in condition 3 instead, because of your lack of training or inexperience, then carrying in condition 3 is useless. If you are that incapable and are faced with a self defense scenario, carrying in condition 3 against an armed bad guy is, at best, going to cause you to lose your gun and at worst cause you to lose your life. If you’re not competent enough to carry in condition 1, then you need to focus on getting training and practicing until you are competent enough.

You make a lot of assumptions as to the nature of a defensive scenario. Not all defensive scenarios are complete ambushes; often there IS enough time to assess the situation and react. The most likely attack scenario for me is someone following me into the vacant house I'm inspecting. Had I been carrying condition 3, in every single defensive circumstance I've experienced, I would have had time to draw, rack, reholster, and select a defensible position behind cover or concealment, and choose the circumstances of the initial encounter. My circumstances are hardly unique.

Your best case and worse case scenarios are simply wrong. The best case scenario is that you're slightly slower to react to a threat than if you carry condition 1, and the worst case scenario is that some lunatic uses your gun to kill a whole bunch of people.

I also heard a few things that scared the hell out of me and that I felt the need to correct, like when a student asked if it was ok to fire a “warning shot” and the instructor said “yeah, you could do that”. We were discussing a scenario that was set in a parking lot in downtown Atlanta!

Sure, you can fire a warning shot, you just have to wait until lethal force is justified, then deliver it center-mass to the bad guy. That initial warning shot should be followed up with an immediate second warning shot, also center-mass. That's the only "warning" a BG deserves.

But, attending these classes and seeing things like that helps you, the students, the instructor and the shooting community in general.

Ultimately, people can do what they want. If they want to carry the slide in one pocket and the frame in another, that’s up to them. I’m not going to encourage them to do anything other than get enough training to be comfortable and competent in carrying in condition 1.

Agree fully. NEVER carry in any condition with which you aren't completely comfortable. If that means condition 8 (field stripped, trigger lock and cable lock installed, magazine empty, sealed box of cartridges wrapped in plastic bag) OK. (But I sure as hell hope you're not going anywhere but to the range in that condition! )

Another option for those who have Glocks and are really that afraid of carrying in condition 1, is to install a NY trigger spring, which I would consider a much better option than carrying in condition 3.

Also agree, a much better option.

But that’s just me. I’ve carried in condition one from the first time I put a gun on, because that’s how I was trained.

I carried around the house and while working in the garage with an empty chamber and empty magazine for a few weeks, then went to condition 3 for a few more. I learned a couple issues from that - the extra fabric on my hooded sweatshirts could get stuck in the holster, and potentially into the trigger guard. I learned to check for that before holstering. I never had an AD and never found the trigger to the rear without it being deliberately pulled, but I'm glad I learned that lesson with an empty chamber nonetheless. A couple months before I sought my CCW, I was carrying openly in and around the house in condition 1.