Carry Ammo Threads merged here:
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Oops.........my bad!
Just throw me in with the rest of the uninformed. I stand corrected sir!
Here's what I found with a web search.
The Winchester "Black Talon" was a JHP made by a new process: punching instead of drilling or molding the hollow cavity. At the time it was one of the more advanced JHP designs. A byproduct of its production method was that upon opening in tissue (this is done by hydraulic pressure), the petals folded back and exposed somewhat sharp points. These extended the crushing/tearing diameter of the bullet.
The bullet was coated with black Lubalox and loaded into a nickel case, making it hard to over look. Lubalox is a hard wax blend and was designed to reduce copper fouling in barrels.
The Black Talon was promoted as the best police/defensive ammo of the time, which immediately earned the ire of the gun control special interest groups. Its stand out looks and promotion made it an easy target. The Lubalox coating made some folks wary that it might penetrate body armor, though this was never claimed and tests repeated proved it to be completely false.
The Black Talon was VOLUNTARILY removed from sale after a number of surgeons and other medical personnel expressed concern about getting cut by the bullets when trying to remove them/treat a gunshot victim -- remember, this was near the beginning of the HIV/AIDS problem. It was quietly reintroduced with an improved design and no Lubalox coating and in its current form is still one of the best defensive/police bullets on the market.
The Black Talon WILL NOT penetrate body armor any better than any other bullet of its caliber, weight, and velocity. In fact, as a JHP, it penetrates LESS than standard FMJ "ball" bullets. It will NOT cut through Kevlar. The pointed petals are ONLY exposed after expansion by hydraulic pressure -- impact on hard objects or resistant fiber causes the bullet to plug and flatten instead of expand. Besides, the petals are not very hard and not that sharp.
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107 Posts
Well there we go lol. Nicely putHamster said:Oops.........my bad!
Just throw me in with the rest of the uninformed. I stand corrected sir!
Here's what I found with a web search.
The Winchester "Black Talon" was a JHP made by a new process: punching instead of drilling or molding the hollow cavity. At the time it was one of the more advanced JHP designs. A byproduct of its production method was that upon opening in tissue (this is done by hydraulic pressure), the petals folded back and exposed somewhat sharp points. These extended the crushing/tearing diameter of the bullet.
The bullet was coated with black Lubalox and loaded into a nickel case, making it hard to over look. Lubalox is a hard wax blend and was designed to reduce copper fouling in barrels.
The Black Talon was promoted as the best police/defensive ammo of the time, which immediately earned the ire of the gun control special interest groups. Its stand out looks and promotion made it an easy target. The Lubalox coating made some folks wary that it might penetrate body armor, though this was never claimed and tests repeated proved it to be completely false.
The Black Talon was VOLUNTARILY removed from sale after a number of surgeons and other medical personnel expressed concern about getting cut by the bullets when trying to remove them/treat a gunshot victim -- remember, this was near the beginning of the HIV/AIDS problem. It was quietly reintroduced with an improved design and no Lubalox coating and in its current form is still one of the best defensive/police bullets on the market.
The Black Talon WILL NOT penetrate body armor any better than any other bullet of its caliber, weight, and velocity. In fact, as a JHP, it penetrates LESS than standard FMJ "ball" bullets. It will NOT cut through Kevlar. The pointed petals are ONLY exposed after expansion by hydraulic pressure -- impact on hard objects or resistant fiber causes the bullet to plug and flatten instead of expand. Besides, the petals are not very hard and not that sharp.
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3 Posts
Solid copper corbon.
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51 Posts
Hornady Critical Defense for all my handguns.
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16 Posts
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1,714 Posts
Just picked up some PDX1 124 gr +P for the OD G19
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114 Posts
.40 Speer Gold Dot 165 gr. P+
This box of 50 was given to me as a gift from the local Police Chief for helping the community during a time of need. I have not been able to find the 165 gr. P+ anywhere... Let alone in 50 round box. It's stamped LEO in HUGE LETTER'S across the front of the box along with the department's info next to it.
I have not wasted a single round so far because I don't want to waste them. I had a buddy who carries the 165 gr. That he picked up at Grander Mountain for $30+ and he bought 13 rounds off of me for $20 and gave me 13 rounds of his 165 gr. as a kicker.
I have not been able to find this ammo on YouTube or any other video site. I would like to see how well it does compared to the 155 gr., 165 gr., and 180 gr.
This box of 50 was given to me as a gift from the local Police Chief for helping the community during a time of need. I have not been able to find the 165 gr. P+ anywhere... Let alone in 50 round box. It's stamped LEO in HUGE LETTER'S across the front of the box along with the department's info next to it.
I have not wasted a single round so far because I don't want to waste them. I had a buddy who carries the 165 gr. That he picked up at Grander Mountain for $30+ and he bought 13 rounds off of me for $20 and gave me 13 rounds of his 165 gr. as a kicker.
I have not been able to find this ammo on YouTube or any other video site. I would like to see how well it does compared to the 155 gr., 165 gr., and 180 gr.
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114 Posts
I have tried out the 180 gr .40 Gold Dot's for a while. I gave up a little mass for some speed. I practiced all my time with 180 gr and just recently found a shop that has 165 gr for cheap when I could not even find it in stock anywhere else (within a couple miles of my house or range). I have noticed a difference in my shooting. Too early to tell if it is better or for worse.
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95 Posts
I'm lucky here in Ohio there is a shop that ships by mail. For 50rds its on average $30+tax & shipping. He usually carries the 155/165/180 Speer and what he can get for the HST and Ranger-T. I have been wanting to try out some PDX1s but and not a huge winchester fan.
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95 Posts
They were never banned just SO much bad PR that they pulled them. People think that they were teflon coated because of the black color however they were coated with a simple lubricant to avoid groove wear. Winchester rebranded them Ranger-T minus the lube as it wasn't needed. PDX1 came about after tweaking by the FBI (lager reverse taper).Hamster said:
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