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@KLF: we at GlockForum do not encourage the sort of individually targetted comment as you started your post with.

Please refrain from doing this.

The post you refer to was in no way meant (or interpreted) to be condescending in any way.

While the charitable message of your post is welcome, the first part of it may be interpreted as individually targetting a fellow Member.

I am a certified intructor. I have shot many many thousands of rounds of ammo of different calibers in different firearms. I have been witness to or present for the firing of many more thousands of rounds during our classes. I have personally never had a Negligent Discharge.

I also believe there is no such thing as an accidental discharge other than the cases of a gun going off when nobody was touching it....in my mind, an "accident" is when a meteor falls from the sky and smashes the fender of the car (which is how I explained the smashed fender to the insurance adjuster, heh-heh) but when the boom button is pressed on a gun and the gun goes off, the safeties worked as they were supposed to but did not prevent the firing because the boom button was pressed, in which case they worked as they were supposed to: to prevent a discharge unless and until the trigger is pressed, but when it is pressed, to allow the gun to fire. That is a Negligent Discharge, not an Accident.

Semantics, perhaps, but the message is clear: accidents do happen, and ADs occur only when the gun is not in anyone's hand. Anything else is an ND. To say or admit that one had an ND should not be looked at in a derogatory sense: it is a learning experience. Some people have NDs due to outright stupidity (such as drunks playing with guns, look at Youtube), and others have an ND due to a slight and momentary lapse of attention, but the fact remains that the gun functioned as it was supposed to: it fired when the trigger was pressed...the trigger press may have been unintentional and therefore accidental, but the discharge was not accidental, it was the result of a series of events starting with an intentional rearward pressure on the trigger.

And I did not ride into this Forum on a high horse, either.

Please be guided accordingly.

Thank you.
Message received loud and clear. No disrespect was intended. It will not happen again. I respect your position as a Moderator so your word is final on conduct regarding responses between members and will be followed and respected.

However your comments that begin with "I am a certified instructor" are where your moderator responsibilities ended and your opinion began. We will simply have to agree to disagree on semantics. The legal definition of the terms will vary from state to state so there may well be 50 different definitions. I'll never forget my A.D.. It was a learning experience for sure. I too was for many years a certified firearms safety instructor. One thing I learned and believe is no matter how safe and well trained we are we are still human and accidents will happen. I hope you never have an A.D. If you do please reread the opinion portion of your post. There but for the grace of God go I. If disagreeing with the opinion portion of your post gets me kicked out of this forum then I will miss it as it is a great place but so be it. Shoot safe.
 

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klf,

Everyone here is entitled to their honest opinion and as long as there is no bashing, nobody will be going anywhere. I respect your opinion and as a matter of fact, I have been involved with an AD/ND myself, and fortunately nobody was hurt. If we learn from our oops, then we have succeeded.
 

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When this thread was first started, I had a feeling it would eventually turn into an ND vs. AD argument/discussion.

I think the point of the OP starting this thread was to confess what happened and offer a reminder to the rest of us about what can happen when we are not paying attention. Good on him for having the courage to admit to it and I appreciate that he did so.

For the ND guys, the next time you smack into the back of the car in front of you because you were a distracted driver, be sure to let your significant other know you will be late because you were in a minor traffic negligence. ;)
 

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GunnerGSP said:
When this thread was first started, I had a feeling it would eventually turn into an ND vs. AD argument/discussion.

I think the point of the OP starting this thread was to confess what happened and offer a reminder to the rest of us about what can happen when we are not paying attention. Good on him for having the courage to admit to it and I appreciate that he did so.

For the ND guys, the next time you smack into the back of the car in front of you because you were a distracted driver, be sure to let your significant other know you will be late because you were in a minor traffic negligence. ;)
Totally agree, after I first read this post I had a mini refresher training course with my son, GF and myself. We all need reminders of what could happen. Thanks
 

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Here is my AD story:
About 15 years ago my son and a few of his high school friends were with me out in the garage when the subject of guns came up. I unlocked my tool cabinet and removed my .380 then cleared the gun for them to pass around. I answered a few questions that the boys had and they handed the gun back to me. I put the mag back in it then locked the gun back up. One of the boys had a question about the firing pin, so I get the gun back out telling them that it has a strong spring in it that is able to put a dent in the primer. I say "Let me show you how strong this spring is." I remove the mag and put a BIC pen down the barrel, point the gun at the ceiling and pull the trigger......BANG....... I had forgot that I had chambered a round. With our ears ringing one of the boys yell "WOW, if the firing pin is that loud I would hate to hear a bullet go off." I looked up at the hole in the ceiling and thanking God thats all that happened and said me too. I never did find that BIC pen, not even a trace of it.
 

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Miniquik said:
Im gonna go ahead and call this a UD ( unintentional discharge). ddd28
Nice one Miniquik.
Seriously is it necessary to correct people on AD/ND. Everyone knows what we are talking about. People use words to convey things differently. It doesn't mean they are wrong. Would you correct the people below.

image-1352392330.jpg
 

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Miniquik said:
Im gonna go ahead and call this a UD ( unintentional discharge). ddd28
LOL! Brother, y'all can call it what you want. I totally believe the discharge was accidental, unintentional, unplanned, unexpected, and unwanted, but the fact is the action (CAUSE) was a failure to ensure the chamber was empty prior to pressing the trigger. Shooter intentionally pressed the trigger, did he not? How do you figure the law would have handled it had that unintentional discharge destroyed someone else's person or property?

It's like saying "accidental pregnancy!". Was the Act an accident, or just the Results?

Not calling anyone here the "L" word, but the biggest difference between supporters and opponents of the Second Amendment is the question of accountability. Anti-gun groups say we the people cannot be trusted with arms and want the government to control us. Pro-gun groups say we the people are not only accountable but must also hold government accountable and could not do that if we are disarmed.

Bottom line, shooter only damaged his stuff, nothing valuable, etc., but he was negligent in doing so, as compared to a Hickok45 video where he shoots up his own stuff on purpose.

People who own or control guns or any other inherently dangerous thing must take responsibility for that thing, be it a knife, lawn mower, car, pit bull, etc.

I pray it never happens to me, but if it does, it will be due to my negligence, period.
 

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negligent[ neg-li-juh nt ]
adjective
1. guilty of or characterized by neglect, as of duty: negligent officials.
2. lazily careless; offhand: a negligent wave of his manicured hand.


Vs.


accidental[ ak-si-den-tl ]
adjective
1. happening by chance or accident; not planned; unexpected: an accidental meeting.
2. nonessential; incidental; subsidiary: accidental benefits.
3. relating to or indicating sharps, flats, or naturals.



Does it really matter?
 

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Not to whatever/whoever gets shot.

My issue is accountability. We as a society are removing personal responsibility from individuals and blaming other factors. I see it in my kids...their "it's not my fault...it was an accident!".

I generally believe the second part of that statement most of the time, but not the first.

The shooter who told us the story was being a responsible gun owner, sharing a lesson learned with us, and I appreciate his courage for doing so. But had he shot something that caused him to stand tall before a judge, he would have been guilty of negligence. No arguing that point.

According to thefreedictionary.com, The legal concept of negligence is that the conduct failed to meet standards of behavior established by law for protection of others against unreasonable risk of harm. A person has acted negligently if they departed from conduct expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances.

I guess 28 years in the military has engrained this point into me..accident or not, if I take action, I am responsible.
 

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I did a little digging and I noticed the OP has not posted to this thread since 5/26. He has not posted anything on this forum since his intro on 5/27 where he specifically mentioned how impressed he was by what we have here.

Now, I suppose it is entirely possible for someone to be away, just not on the forum that much, or hesitant to post anything; but I sure hope all this chest thumping about AD vs. ND has not put a damper on his enthusiasm. He made a big mistake and owned up to it. Nobody was hurt. He learned a valuable lesson and made us aware so we could be reminded of how easily we can be distracted.

Can't that be enough?

Maybe we just need to chill and go hang out in the bacon thread for a while. Bacon fix everything!
 

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Discussion Starter #72
I'm leaning in the direction of a ND.
Thanks for your support guys.
My only intention in the post was a wake up call. Even someone who has shot for many years can get complacent
Have a safe weekend.
I WIll!
 

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hartgk01 said:
I'm leaning in the direction of a ND.
Thanks for your support guys.
My only intention in the post was a wake up call. Even someone who has shot for many years can get complacent
Have a safe weekend.
I WIll!
Thank you for posting your experience hartgk01. It was a really good reminder for us all. We should never get too comfortable with our firearm handling and we can never be too careful.
 

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hartgk01 said:
I'm leaning in the direction of a ND.
Thanks for your support guys.
My only intention in the post was a wake up call. Even someone who has shot for many years can get complacent
Have a safe weekend.
I WIll!
Thanks for the reality check!!! We all need one from time to time.... Better to learn from someone else's mistakes though... Still glad no one got hurt... Safe shooting!!!!
 

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I had one about 4 months ago with my brand new Remington 870. I found some 3" 00 buck 15 shot and was loading the shotgun up with it you know just getting familiar with it. I unloaded it and thought that all the ammo was out when to dry fire it and boom. The gun was facing towards the ceiling and nobody got hurt besides my ears, drywall, and an electrical wire for the hallway light. No cops were called. I'll tell you this it was one hell of a wake up and life lesson learned.
 
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