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hey!!! thats why Walmart is out of federal premium hollow point... bastards!!!
 

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I don't understand why this keeps coming up or why people are so freaked out about it. It's more of a renewal of the previous contract than it is anything "new". It's for up to 450M; there's no guarantee they'll take it all and they usually don't.

When you consider the number of agents in the various agencies under DHS, the amount of ammo they have to be issued plus training, along with the length of the contract, this isn't really that big of a deal.
 

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Glockn Rollin
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Who uses hollowpoints for training though? lol No wonder our nation is so far in debt!
 

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I used to work For the prison system here in NC. When you first started and every year after that we shot 300 rounds of remington JHP. Issued the same type in the M and P 's we had issued. And we were just a prison.. not cops..not agents... and we used HP's for practice. Yes its stupid and I thought so at the time. The department of corrections is the largest tax money spender in the state and for good reason, we have 75 prisons in NC. But its not just ammo... those damn inmates get the world, might as well be on some kind of messed up cruise ship.
 

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Duct Tape, Alabama Chrome
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Ya, I take the same approach to this as I do with mine own ****. I don't buy cheap for my own SD, I buy what will keep my ass safe. JHP for training might be a bit much, but you know this is for carry too, and they might get a better deal on it just ordering one type. Also it might just be easier knowing that if **** really hits the fan for them, they don't have to worry about oh we don't have enough carry ammo because its mostly range ****.
 

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Glockn Rollin
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this. Come on people do you have any idea how many people are in the service? Should be limit them all to one magazine?

There are places you don't cut corners, in this day and age Military is one of them.
I understand this, but how much harder would it be to place on the order for some FMJ rounds for training? If there are so many people in the service, then it would save a great deal of money buying FMJ for practice and training rather than HP. And the military doesn't even use hollow point ammunition because it goes against the rules established by the Geneva convention. So this ammo could not possibly be going to the military.
 

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Yes, The Hague Convention forbids the military from using hollow-point ammunition, and DHS is not covered by The Hague Convention, which makes HP ammo use for DHS agencies perfectly legal.

Additionally, any military units (Army or Air Force, or National Guard) requested or appropriated by DHS are similarly not covered by this restriction.
 

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Glockn Rollin
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Yes, The Hague Convention forbids the military from using hollow-point ammunition, and DHS is not covered by The Hague Convention, which makes HP ammo use for DHS agencies perfectly legal.

Additionally, any military units (Army or Air Force, or National Guard) requested or appropriated by DHS are similarly not covered by this restriction.
So a workaround to that rule? lol sneaky suckers.
 

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I understand this, but how much harder would it be to place on the order for some FMJ rounds for training? If there are so many people in the service, then it would save a great deal of money buying FMJ for practice and training rather than HP. And the military doesn't even use hollow point ammunition because it goes against the rules established by the Geneva convention. So this ammo could not possibly be going to the military.
Just FYI, GA State Patrol does the same. They buy .45GAP Gold Dots in bulk from Speer. I actually got a box of what I can only guess is "overrun" because it was 250 rounds of 200gr Gold Dots for $85. It's exactly what GSP issues, same specs listed on the plain white box of 250 loose rounds, but the label says "Not For Law Enforcement Use". Considering it's new ammo, loaded to the same specs, in the same cases, with the same bullets as what would normally be sold in boxes of 20 for $25ish...


So a workaround to that rule? lol sneaky suckers.
They wouldn't be able to use it against enemy combatants in a war or armed conflict.



When you think about it, in an ideal world, you would want your training to not be just as close as possible to how it would be in real life, but identical. The best way to do that is to train with the same ammo you carry. We all, hopefully, do that, at least to some extent.

I always try to try to by training ammo that's the same weight and spec as my carry ammo. Doing that is the best I can do to practice with what I carry, outside of the boxes of carry ammo I put through my guns to prove them out, and when I'm shooting off old carry ammo to be replaced by new.

For people who carry their guns for a living, and doing so for the benefit of the country, I'm not going to begrudge them HPs for training.

If I could afford to shoot nothing but my carry ammo, especially on someone else's dime, I absolutely would.

To put a different spin on this...if your local, 100 officer, police department awarded a contract for 500k rounds over 5 years, would that bother you? That would be 1000 rounds per person per year. If you qualify quarterly, and shoot 250 rounds each time, there's your 1000 rounds and you still don't have your carry ammo.
 

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So a workaround to that rule?

Yes, "By Direction of the President", DHS may request or appropriate any regular military units in case of "domestic emergencies" ranging from natural disasters (*FEMA is under DHS) to terrorist attack, to threats on the Government and any person within it (*US Secret Service is also under DHS), or "any other civil disturbance", and may activate National Guard units with or without the consent of the Governor in the state in question, and may request an in-camera invocation of the Insurrection Act of 1807.

In regards to the Guard, unless the Governor declares a state of emergency, the Guard remains administratively attached to their parent Army or Air Force unit, but at any time may be sequestered by NPPD (National Protection and Programs Directorate, a branch of DHS) for use in states other than their home state, or within their home state following a Declaration of Martial Law, also provided for in the Insurrection Act.

Once the Insurrection Act is invoked, the restrictions of Posse Comitatus (that restricts the use of regular military for use within the CONUS) no longer apply.

All this is possible "By Direction of the President".

If you can get ahold of the full text of it, read the Patriot Act carefully. DHS is tasked with not only protecting our borders from without, but also for maintaining protection of the Government and "critical industries, resources, and personnel" within our borders.
 

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Let me settle this for everyone, once and for all.

DHS does not use JHP for training. They use Speer Lawman Frangible ammo for their ranges. Their ranges are indoor/outdoor ranges and cannot use lead on them. The "450,000,000" number is what they can order "up to". DHS has the discretion to order up to 450 million rounds. With over 200,000 DHS officers carrying an average of 51 rounds a piece on their belt, that's a lot of ammo. That's not counting what each office has in their armory for extra ammo for all of their officers. Also take into account, the different tactical units with DHS. They have even more ammo at their disposal. DHS won't order the full 450 million but they could if they wanted to. They order new ammo every year. For some odd reason this made the headlines this year.
 

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Solution: Hire Happy to do their reloading and the Government won't have to buy so many factory loads. More for us then. Besides, he works cheaper than 450 million rounds would cost.
 
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