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Gen 4 trigger mods - an FYI


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Old 02-20-2017, 05:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teksid View Post
It's most likely the bend of the connector. You should barely be able to slide a piece of paper between the trigger housing and the connector. Too much or too little space between them will cause issues. This a common mistake. I know because this happened to me with my first connector install.
I can't link it but this is discussed on the Ghost website in the installation instructions.
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Originally Posted by rbbeers View Post
The video Adjusting your connector-Bend angle adjustment (from GhostInc.com here) may be helpful.

Good luck!

Best regards,

Bob
If the connector was the issue, why would it be perfectly fine with the original trigger, trigger bar, and not ok with the smooth face OEM trigger/bar?


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Old 02-20-2017, 06:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bearclaw500 View Post

If the connector was the issue, why would it be perfectly fine with the original trigger, trigger bar, and not ok with the smooth face OEM trigger/bar?
Quite honestly, the pistol's performance should've been consistent with either trigger bar. However, 'stranger things' have happened.

Personally, I wasn't sure when you swapped what.

If you ensured that the trigger connector was properly seated and 'adjusted', then simply swapped trigger bar assemblies, and the original trigger bar assembly functioned, but the 'new' trigger bar assembly didn't, then the 'new' trigger bar would seem to the the culprit.

Compare trigger bar assemblies and determine what's different. I would think it would be something rather obvious... but maybe not. For example, the trigger bar may be 'stopping out' on the frame too early (thereby, not 'dropping' the sear sufficiently)... or the trigger bar may be too short (again, not 'dropping' the sear sufficiently)... or the rear of the trigger bar may have a different contour where the trigger connector rides on the trigger bar (again, not 'dropping' the sear sufficiently)... et cetera... et cetera.

Bottom line: The cruciform sear must drop about 0.040" to 'just below the frame' to release the firing pin lug... and that can be confirmed with the slide removed, as shown here and here.

Please let us know what you find.

Best regards,

Bob



Last edited by rbbeers; 02-20-2017 at 06:39 PM. Reason: 'Cleaned up' post.
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:49 PM   #23
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Quite honestly, the pistol's performance should've been consistent with either trigger bar. However, 'stranger things' have happened.

Personally, I wasn't sure when you swapped what.

If you ensured that the trigger connector was properly seated and 'adjusted', then simply swapped trigger bar assemblies, and the original trigger bar assembly functioned, but the 'new' trigger bar assembly didn't, then the 'new' trigger bar would seem to the the culprit.

Compare trigger bar assemblies and determine what's different. I would think it would be something rather obvious... but maybe not. For example, the trigger bar may be 'stopping out' on the frame too early (thereby, not 'dropping' the sear sufficiently)... or the trigger bar may be too short (again, not 'dropping' the sear sufficiently)... or the rear of the trigger bar may have a different contour where the trigger connector rides on the trigger bar (again, not 'dropping' the sear sufficiently)... et cetera... et cetera.

Bottom line: The cruciform sear must drop about 0.040" to 'just below the frame' to release the firing pin lug... and that can be confirmed with the slide removed, as shown here and here.

Please let us know what you find.

Best regards,

Bob
This is actually the order of which I did things. I wanted to see what effect each part had so I would install one, reassemble and test, before installing the next. Connect was first, trigger spring second, plunger spring third, new trigger last. And thats where things got all effed up. I'll play around with the trigger bars tonight and compare them, looking for the things you pointed out.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:06 PM   #24
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I have a smooth trigger on my Gen 4 G22 so I guess I got lucky by purchasing at the right time and not getting the trigger with the ridges on it. When was the production start/stop time for these ridged triggers? The test fire date on mine is 10-1-2013.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:23 PM   #25
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I have a smooth trigger on my Gen 4 G22 so I guess I got lucky by purchasing at the right time and not getting the trigger with the ridges on it. When was the production start/stop time for these ridged triggers? The test fire date on mine is 10-1-2013.
I believe at that time, all the full size glocks had smooth triggers, compacts and subcompacts had serrations. This was to comply with US import regulations I think. Could be wrong, but I think I read that in a gun magazine or something at one point. I believe all of the models have serrated triggers now?
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:18 AM   #26
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I just saw this post in which you stated...

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Originally Posted by Bearclaw500 View Post

Only difference I can speak to between his 43 and my 19, is my 19 now doesn't have any noticeable overtravel and my dad's 43 has less overtravel, but still noticeable when dry firing.
I also reread your original post and noted the following...

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Originally Posted by Bearclaw500 View Post

... no over travel at all.
To the best of my knowledge, the only way that can happen with a stock trigger bar assembly and a Zev V4 trigger connector is for the sear to 'break' exactly as the trigger bar 'stops out' on the frame.

If the trigger stop of another trigger bar is only very slightly longer than that of your 'no overtravel' trigger bar (so that the new trigger bar 'stops out' too soon), the contour of the rear of the new trigger bar is just a bit shallower, or the pitch of the cruciform sear tab is too high, then the sear won't drop far enough to release the firing pin lug... just as you've described.

That being said, it may not be the trigger bar that's 'out of spec'. It may be that the Zev V4 trigger connector is very slightly longer than Glock OEM connectors. (But, I don't know that to be true.) A slightly longer connector, by 0.010" or 0.015", would decrease overtravel rather significantly. However, with a longer trigger connector, a 'long' trigger bar (that still meets Glock's specifications) may 'stop out' before the sear breaks.

If this is true, a few thousandths of an inch could make a BIG difference.

You can test what I've just presented by installing a Glock OEM trigger connector. If the length of the Zev V4 trigger connector is indeed the issue, both trigger bar assemblies should function with a Glock OEM trigger connector.

If the problems persists, then we're back to differences between the two trigger bar assemblies.

Please let us know.

Best regards,

Bob

Last edited by rbbeers; 02-21-2017 at 05:44 AM. Reason: 'Cleaned up' post.
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Old 02-21-2017, 03:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbbeers View Post
I just saw this post in which you stated...



I also reread your original post and noted the following...



To the best of my knowledge, the only way that can happen with a stock trigger bar assembly and a Zev V4 trigger connector is for the sear to 'break' exactly as the trigger bar 'stops out' on the frame.

If the trigger stop of another trigger bar is only very slightly longer than that of your 'no overtravel' trigger bar (so that the new trigger bar 'stops out' too soon), the contour of the rear of the new trigger bar is just a bit shallower, or the pitch of the cruciform sear tab is too high, then the sear won't drop far enough to release the firing pin lug... just as you've described.

That being said, it may not be the trigger bar that's 'out of spec'. It may be that the Zev V4 trigger connector is very slightly longer than Glock OEM connectors. (But, I don't know that to be true.) A slightly longer connector, by 0.010" or 0.015", would decrease overtravel rather significantly. However, with a longer trigger connector, a 'long' trigger bar (that still meets Glock's specifications) may 'stop out' before the sear breaks.

If this is true, a few thousandths of an inch could make a BIG difference.

You can test what I've just presented by installing a Glock OEM trigger connector. If the length of the Zev V4 trigger connector is indeed the issue, both trigger bar assemblies should function with a Glock OEM trigger connector.

If the problems persists, then we're back to differences between the two trigger bar assemblies.

Please let us know.

Best regards,

Bob
Hmm... very interesting. Whats even more interested, is I put the smooth trigger back in last night get some videos of the issue... and the issue wasn't the same. The trigger broke no problem. The new issue last night though, was the smooth face trigger was in no way crisp. it was like breaking a small green branch over your knee. You hit the wall, and basically drag that wall back until it breaks. Almost a surprise break, but not quite. Regardless, I'll post the vids as soon as I figure out how to do it from my phone.

Tonight I will put the OEM connector back in with the smooth trigger bar and see what changes. My confusion is this though... forget about the smooth trigger for a minute. Serrated stock trigger with the OEM connector and springs vs. the serrated stock trigger with Zev connector and springs yielded no negative changes. It was the addition of the smooth trigger where things went funky. Seems to me that the connector wouldnt be the problem, and it would be the trigger bars as you stated. I'll run any combinations and tests you can think of though, and post any pictures you may wish to see. I appreciate all your insight and help
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Old 02-21-2017, 04:20 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bearclaw500 View Post

My confusion is this though... forget about the smooth trigger for a minute. Serrated stock trigger with the OEM connector and springs vs. the serrated stock trigger with Zev connector and springs yielded no negative changes. It was the addition of the smooth trigger where things went funky. Seems to me that the connector wouldnt be the problem, and it would be the trigger bars as you stated. I'll run any combinations and tests you can think of though, and post any pictures you may wish to see. I appreciate all your insight and help
I understand.

What I'm trying to convey is that it's my perception that, since the combination that works has no overtravel, the trigger group is 'stopping out' precisely as the sear breaks. Not good!

Under those conditions, any variation in 'things' could cause the pistol to 'not fire'... which is what you described happening.

By experimenting this morning, I've indeed confirmed that a cumulative total of about 0.015" variation (aka, 'tolerance stack up') is all that's required to cause my G17.4 to become unreliable. The pistol sometimes won't fire with the trigger fully depressed... and all I did is move the trigger connector slightly (by filing the trigger housing slot and wedging the trigger connector 'longer').

(Note: In reality, the above 0.015" can be any combination of variations in a multitude of dimensions of the trigger bar assembly, the trigger connector, the trigger housing, and the frame that causes the sear break to change.)

In my opinion, 'no overtravel' means that the 'working' combination described in your original post was actually just a few thousandths of a inch from failing... and, when you changed trigger bar assemblies, there was enough difference that the trigger group then indeed failed.

At this point, since the problem has changed, I don't know what to tell you... other than I wish you the very best.

Good luck!

Best regards,

Bob
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Old 02-21-2017, 04:49 PM   #29
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I understand.

What I'm trying to convey is that it's my perception that, since the combination that works has no overtravel, the trigger group is 'stopping out' precisely as the sear breaks. Not good!

Under those conditions, any variation in 'things' could cause the pistol to 'not fire'... which is what you described happening.

By experimenting this morning, I've indeed confirmed that a cumulative total of about 0.015" variation (aka, 'tolerance stack up') is all that's required to cause my G17.4 to become unreliable. The pistol sometimes won't fire with the trigger fully depressed... and all I did is move the trigger connector slightly (by filing the trigger housing slot and wedging the trigger connector 'longer').

(Note: In reality, the above 0.015" can be any combination of variations in a multitude of dimensions of the trigger bar assembly, the trigger connector, the trigger housing, and the frame that causes the sear break to change.)

In my opinion, 'no overtravel' means that the 'working' combination described in your original post was actually just a few thousandths of a inch from failing... and, when you changed trigger bar assemblies, there was enough difference that the trigger group then indeed failed.

At this point, since the problem has changed, I don't know what to tell you... other than I wish you the very best.

Good luck!

Best regards,

Bob
Im wondering if something was just slightly off when I assembled before... no idea what it could have been, but something indeed changed. Im still going to play with it tonight and put the OEM stuff back in with the smooth trigger and see if its still a squishy green tree branch. For the cost being so low on these parts, I may get another V4 connector and smooth trigger just to see if perhaps they're ever so slightly out of spec.


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