[sbg2340]

There have been several threads on people who OC and getting stopped by police for it. Some have turned out OK (nice chat with the LEO) and others have not (ie. LEO coming out with guns draw, having OC person lay on floor, being verbally abusive, etc..)

The threads have given a slew of information (document stuff, lawyer up, sue) and have also given a slew of LEO bashing along with spinning off various case laws, what the law is, etc...

Seems like the same stuff is repeated over and over. Granted it happens to different members and some members here may be "newer" than others and thus may not have read the older threads.

So with that in mind perhaps a sticky called An OC Guide to Protecting Your Rights is in order. Here is a list of items that I have picked up from various members and other sites regarding this issue.

DOCUMENTING THE EVENT
- Write a letter to the manager (and CC corporate office) of any establishment (if any) with security cameras where the incident takes place. Ask them to not destroy/re-record the video footage at location x for date y for time z as they may be used in an upcoming civil/criminal trial. Sign letter, make a copy and send via CERTIFIED MAIL with SIGNATURE confirmation.
· Write down a complete time line of the events from before the incident, the incident and post incident.
· Where were you coming from?
· What were you doing prior to the event?
· Why did you stop at this location?
· Who was with you?
· What did the LEO say?
· How many of them were there?
· What were their names? Badge #? LEO Agency?
· What occurred?
· How did you feel during this event?
· What did you do after the event?
· How did you feel after the event?
· SIGN & DATE this statement.
- Have any other witness in your party also write down what they saw. Have them SIGN & DATE their statement.

- Have the statements notarized ASAP.

- Take pictures of what you were wearing when the incident occurred

- If possible carry with you an audio recording device. Under Indiana Law only one party needs to know that a recording is occurring for it to be legal. (IE. Since you are recording you ARE that one party). Remember if you have a cell phone chances are good it can record audio/video and take pictures as well use it!

ACTION TO TAKE
- File formal complaint with LEO agency and obtain file complaint number
- Contact <<insert your county name here>> County Bar Association and ask them who specializes in Civil Rights cases.
- Contact your attorney which you may have on retainer or have dealt with before.

INFO TO HAVE ON HAND & REMEMBER WHEN TALKING TO LEO

If you are being arrested; involved in any type of firearm issue; or anything in which an LEO is in your presence

My name is <<insert your name>>. I feared for my life. I request legal counsel before I answer any questions. (Plus read the statements below)

Non-Waiver of 4th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government.
I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

I do not consent to a search of my person, my belongings, my automobile, my home, or any other of my items. I also do not consent to any further detention of my person, my belongings, my automobile, or any other of my items.

If you search or detain me without the requisite justification under the law, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.

Non-Waiver of 5th, 6th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government. I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fifth, Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

I hereby invoke my Sixth Amendment right to an attorney as well as my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. I will therefore remain silent until an attorney is provided.

If you question or interrogate me in the absence of my attorney, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.

[jfirecops]

"you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer."

This part can be perceived as a threat in some localities. Most states have a certain amount of hours they can detain anyone for any reason without charging them, so if the officer feels threatened you are more likely to get legally harassed.

[wsar10]

^theres a few hloes in that post......
the ones you mentioned,
and if you are arrested than you no longer have the right not to be searched, if your arrested in your vehicle than they can search it as well

alot of LEO's take advantage of ppl that do not know the law and once they learn that you do know the gun laws it usually resolves an OC issue.

[G19C]

If I had a Nickel for everytime someone "Told me their rights", I would be a rich man...LOL

We have a criminal defense attorney in my area that does DUII cases that his clients hand out a card with "their rights" and that I "can't" search or impound their vehicle after being arrested for DUII. They get real pissed when they see the tow truck taking their vehicle to impound....

[NYSCourtOfficer]

Depending on where the open carry occurs, some officers feel there is a safety issue. You don't know if the gun the person is carrying truly is unloaded until you check the action. Civilians should understand this. On the other hand, yes, there are some of us in uniform who are "aggressive," when we don't need to be. Calmer heads need to prevail in open carry stops...and those of us in uniform need to remember...we are sworn to protect their right to carry openly, as we are sworn to uphold the Constitution.

[G19C]

Originally Posted by NYSCourtOfficer

Depending on where the open carry occurs, some officers feel there is a safety issue. You don't know if the gun the person is carrying truly is unloaded until you check the action. Civilians should understand this. On the other hand, yes, there are some of us in uniform who are "aggressive," when we don't need to be. Calmer heads need to prevail in open carry stops...and those of us in uniform need to remember...we are sworn to protect their right to carry openly, as we are sworn to uphold the Constitution.

All good points! I will always assume the firearm you have is loaded. Besides that, I am not driving around looking to "harass" people and their rights. However, in our area we have our fair share of robberies, Burgs, etc. So if that just happended 2 blocks from the area, and I see a person walking with a firearm, you damn right I am going to stop that person. I only need a Reasonable Suspicion to stop you. I could just be asking if he/she saw anyone running by, etc. If that person immediately turns aggressive towards me, asking for my badge #, telling me they will contact my employer, etc; a bunch of red flags are going to go up.

I have NO problems with people carrying. But we have "gang" members carrying also, should I drive by and wave when there are 25 calls from worried citizens?? Those people are also tax paying people as well. I didn't take an oath for just the OC guy...

My advice is, be calm, let the officer become at ease with you for a moment, I don't know you from Adam.. He/She may just have a question about something non-related or you may match a description. Myself and anyone else on here working in, or has worked in LE knows how many officers are killed each year. It takes attending one funeral, or seeing your kids wave goodbye and wife not knowing if you will come home! I will be safe always, and if I hurt your feelings by stopping and telling you that 25 people called in and our scared; my duty is to them as much as you... Doesn't mean I am going to violate your rights! But if you start spewing "your rights" and want my badge #, and going to call my employer, etc., It will change the whole perception of how this contact is going to go.. In most cases, a simple chat, puts my mind at ease and I can tell the others that called in that its no problem. Probably shake your hand and be on my way.

Yes, you will always have the "badge heavy" rookie officer. But for the most part, most are honest good people that will still respond to the guy that wanted their badge # home if they need help!

[havasu]

Well said G19C!

[wsar10]

Originally Posted by NYSCourtOfficer

Depending on where the open carry occurs, some officers feel there is a safety issue. You don't know if the gun the person is carrying truly is unloaded until you check the action. Civilians should understand this. On the other hand, yes, there are some of us in uniform who are "aggressive," when we don't need to be. Calmer heads need to prevail in open carry stops...and those of us in uniform need to remember...we are sworn to protect their right to carry openly, as we are sworn to uphold the Constitution.

this is the best advice of the day !

talking about gang members ............ c'mon now your REALLY switching up the demagraphic here, we are talking about a guy like myself that gets out of his car (5 years ago) (with a valid CCW) with my gun on my side visable upon exiting the vehicle but covered by my shirt after that. A nosy lady sitting beside see's it (I observe her glaring at me) and calls the police.....at this point my family and I are in the store and slowly being surrounded by LEO's, two come over to me and assertivly ask me to step outside. Upon getting outside they start in with there spew of "a concerened citizen" and before they were done I produced my CCW. I started asking them if they knew the state gun laws and that if they neede a refresher that my attorney and I could provide one ! I was VERY frustrated that they just embarrassed myself and my family in a store inside my own community of in which I am very active politicaly and my business is well know and serves many ppl. Now this little stunt could have cost me alot (politicaly) if the right ppl would have been there or any customers to my business would have seen. I did not look suspect I had on a pair of Levi's and a button down plad columbia shirt and was walking with my wife and kids into the store. Finally a LEO showed up that knew me and made sure that the rookies that just embarassed me QUICKLY apologized that was not good enough I made them stand there for 30 minutes until my family came outside and demanded that they apologize to my family and tell them they had made a mistake, and they did.

You just have some cops that think what they say goes and that is that ! These are the guys that are gonna preach the law to you the way they think it should be becuase you don't know any better, the guys that think they are the only ones that should have a gun on there side. Sadly half the LEO's in my area are this way lucky for me I know the guys that are seasoned LEO's I've practiced with them and frequent alot of local events with them or in support of them. I am the furthest thing from a guy that "can't stand cops" and "therer all crooks" BS, I have the utmost respect for these guys and go out of my way to not cuase them problems and show my support, these guys have a rough enough job as it is so do your self a favor ...............don't start waiving you political finger as soon as cop approaches you wait and get a feel for the situation and see if there is a need to .

[ArizonaLawman]

[QUOTE=sbg2340;983]There have been several threads on people who OC and getting stopped by police for it. Some have turned out OK (nice chat with the LEO) and others have not (ie. LEO coming out with guns draw, having OC person lay on floor, being verbally abusive, etc..)

The threads have given a slew of information (document stuff, lawyer up, sue) and have also given a slew of LEO bashing along with spinning off various case laws, what the law is, etc...

Seems like the same stuff is repeated over and over. Granted it happens to different members and some members here may be "newer" than others and thus may not have read the older threads.

So with that in mind perhaps a sticky called An OC Guide to Protecting Your Rights is in order. Here is a list of items that I have picked up from various members and other sites regarding this issue.


From where did these members get their badges, law degress, or specific expertise in the application of law?


DOCUMENTING THE EVENT
- Write a letter to the manager (and CC corporate office) of any establishment (if any) with security cameras where the incident takes place. Ask them to not destroy/re-record the video footage at location x for date y for time z as they may be used in an upcoming civil/criminal trial. Sign letter, make a copy and send via CERTIFIED MAIL with SIGNATURE confirmation.
· Write down a complete time line of the events from before the incident, the incident and post incident.
· Where were you coming from?
· What were you doing prior to the event?
· Why did you stop at this location?
· Who was with you?
· What did the LEO say?
· How many of them were there?
· What were their names? Badge #? LEO Agency?
· What occurred?
· How did you feel during this event?


Really? If an officer has PC to "have a chat with you" especially if he/she has received a "man with a gun" call, or are looking for someone whose description you happen to fit AND are conspicuously armed...the offider IS going to have a chat with you...and quite frankly...the "law" doesn't care how you feel, or if your feathers have been ruffled by a PERCEIVED violation of your so-called rights. No one is here trying to trample your rights, but in the course of doing the job, and officer is under NO obligation to hand you cotton candy and lollipops.


· What did you do after the event?

· How did you feel after the event?


Read above again...apply here.



· SIGN & DATE this statement.
- Have any other witness in your party also write down what they saw. Have them SIGN & DATE their statement.

- Have the statements notarized ASAP.

- Take pictures of what you were wearing when the incident occurred

- If possible carry with you an audio recording device. Under Indiana Law only one party needs to know that a recording is occurring for it to be legal. (IE. Since you are recording you ARE that one party). Remember if you have a cell phone chances are good it can record audio/video and take pictures as well use it!

[ArizonaLawman]

ACTION TO TAKE
- File formal complaint with LEO agency and obtain file complaint number
- Contact <<insert your county name here>> County Bar Association and ask them who specializes in Civil Rights cases.
- Contact your attorney which you may have on retainer or have dealt with before.


For what? Unless I missed something...there is NO specific scenario above???? What occurred that a complaint needs to be filed? Were you beaten to within an inch of your life? Were you simply questioned? What happened? Or is it that you are PISSED off because an officer was trying to do their job...there are NO specifics up there.

INFO TO HAVE ON HAND & REMEMBER WHEN TALKING TO LEO

If you are being arrested; involved in any type of firearm issue; or anything in which an LEO is in your presence


Again...you NEED to be specific. IF you are carrying legally, either OC or CC...you are NOT going to be arrested unless YOU DO SOMETHING STUPID and violate the law. And...oh by the way...if you are being ARRESTED a LEO will most assuredly be in your presence.

My name is <<insert your name>>. I feared for my life. I request legal counsel before I answer any questions. (Plus read the statements below)


Close to "decent" advice...but you WILL pretty much guarantee yourself a trip to the lockup. Here's why...by jumping on the 5th Ammendment bandwagon and refusing to say ANYTHING...responding officers will NOT have a narrative description of the KEY elements of the incident, and YOU need to be clear that YOU are the victim, and YOU were acting in legal defense of your life.


What is BETTER said is: "Officer...that person lying over there attacked me with a knife/club/gun. The weapon is laying by his right hand. I was FORCED TO FIRE TO STOP HIS ATTACK. I want to cooperate with you, but I am very shaken up right now, and will wait until cousel is here before I answer any more questions."


You have just claimed victim status and pointed out key evidence to support YOUR version of the incident, and guess what...NOW IT WILL GET IN THE OFFICER'S REPORT THAT THERE WAS A KNIFE/GUN/WHATEVER in or near the hand of the attacker.

Non-Waiver of 4th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government.
I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

I do not consent to a search of my person, my belongings, my automobile, my home, or any other of my items. I also do not consent to any further detention of my person, my belongings, my automobile, or any other of my items.

If you search or detain me without the requisite justification under the law, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.

Non-Waiver of 5th, 6th and 14th Amendment Rights Statement
I have been advised never to waive a constitutional right protecting my liberty. In respect for the wisdom of our founding fathers who knew well the dangers of a dictatorial government. I hereby invoke my rights as guaranteed by the Fifth, Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

I hereby invoke my Sixth Amendment right to an attorney as well as my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. I will therefore remain silent until an attorney is provided.

If you question or interrogate me in the absence of my attorney, you are hereby advised that I will take all appropriate legal action against you personally, as well as against your employer.[/QUOTE]

Um...if you are BEING arrested then the officer has EVERY RIGHT to search you, your baggage, your automobile or conveyance, the area surrounding the incident AND it is "INCIDENTAL AND PURSUANT TO ARREST". So forget all that crap above. Unless you are a Constitutional Law specialist...you WILL "talk your way into jail" by assuming you know the law better than an officer, OR MORE IMPORTANTLY the INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW IN THE COURTS IN THIS JURISDICTION.


AND...threatening an officer with lawsuits, or whatever...is NOT going to make that officer more inclined to be empathetic. That's crap we hear ALL the time. Usually from crackheads, tweakers, and other legal experts. You know what WE hear? "Bark Bark Bark...Yip Yip Yip...Blah Blah Blah...Meow Meow Meow...." It's like a chihuahua barking at you. You hear some noise...but it really don't mean much.


Just follow this advice: Do what the officer tells you. Comply with reasonable instructions. It WILL get worked out. If you have done nothing wrong, no one is going to FRAME YOU, or plant evidence or any other TV crap like that. If you are outside your vehicle...then there is NO reason to search it, and you can tell the officer that IN A POLITE manner. This will get you a LOT more credibility than trying to jump on a high horse and tell an officer with YEARS OF REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE on the street and IN COURT ROOMS how the cow ate the cabbage, and to spew your recently learned phrases from the internet.

It's funny (almost) how many people who thought they knew the law and it's application wound up TALKING THEMSELVES INTO JAIL by arguing with officers and being a internet attorney. The best advice is always to remain calm, remain reasonable, and it WILL get worked out. If you immediately go to "pleadin' tha fifth"...the officer has NO CHOICE but to ARREST YOU and take you into custody to let you PAY FOR AN ATTORNEY so you can be questioned a WHOLE LOT MORE AND A WHOLE LOT LONGER because you took bad internet armchair lawyer advice.

Seriously...I don't want to come off like a jerk. But the deal is...if you are stopped by an officer they WILL have probable cause, ot reasonable suspicion to do so. Number one...we do NOT have time to dick around bothering law adibing folks for the fun of it. There are probably five or six calls backed up on the MDT that we need to handle too.

I am not saying to give away the farm...but there are certain things that you need to tell an officer. Are you carrying a weapon? If so, let them know. Just as a courtesy. If you are up front with that info, you are going to get a LOT more consideration than if we have to find out on our own. Some surprises are not good surprises.

"Officer...I just want to let you know. I am legally armed, I have a permit and my weapon is holstered _______". What would you like me to do?" Note: The above statement does NOT sound like "I GOT A GUN!" even to a wet behind the ears rookie. You have simply told the officer that you didn't want him to be surprised, and NOW you are on a footing of honest dealing, and believe me WE appreciate that. Now everyone concerned can relax just a tad, and get things worked out.

You just gave the officer some key info, and most likely (here in AZ especially) I am going to tell you something like..."Super, thanks for letting me know. I'll make you a deal...you don't play with yours, and I won't have to play with mine."